I think Louis Santos is a better wrestler. Did you see the way that he threw Ben around in that fight?! Wow that was something to behold! It's too bad that Ben decided to poke his eyes out to get an advantage.
Santos is a lifelong judo blackbelt and called it before the fight. I watched one of his interviews prior and he said he was going to use his judo to counter Askrens wrestling and throw him around and that's exactly what he did. Askren looked like an amateur in there with a deer in the headlights look.
Askren is good but I don't see him being elite in the UFC.
Slowshot - Also, for Winston Wolf, I would agree that Olympic Gold is a more impressive accomplishment than NCAA title, THAT SAID, I don't quite think that's the argument that fan4000 is making.
I THINK the argument that he’s making (and fan4000 can correct me if I’m wrong) is as follows:
Ben very well may be as good at Folkstyle as Yoel is at freestyle.
a) Folkstyle is different enough from freestyle that success at one is not necessarily a complete proxy for skill at the other. There’s a LOT of carry over, yes, but there’s also enough different that one can be the GOAT at one, and not necessarily at the other.
b) While an Olympic Gold is more impressive than an NCAA title, Ben was more dominant in Folkstyle than Yoel was in Freestyle. It’s akin to a guy averaging 45 a game in Mid-Major basketball. Is he a better player than the guy averaging 20 a game at Kentucky? I don’t know, but it’s an interesting discussion to have. Yes, Yoel was a great freestyle wrestler, but nobody mentions him when they’re discussing “the greatest who ever did it”. Askren is in that conversation in Folkstyle.
I’m not saying I have a strong opinion one way or the other, just that I don’t think fan4000 is coming out of cloudcuckooland with his reasoning.
Yes this is basically what I am saying. They are very different sports in a lot of ways. Askern was an excellant mat wrestler from top and bottom, these skills translate to a degree but they are not the focus of freestyle so they aren't nearly as important. Askern was amazing at creating funky scrambles (hence the nickname) many of those scrambles you cannot attempt in freestyle because if you expose your back it will be points for the other guy.
Folkstyle is more about control and you have freedom to create awkward positions because the ruleset is more forgiving of msitakes and more encouraging of mat wrestling. Freestyle is more about staying in great position and taking selective shots.
I'm sure someone will find a flaw in my above brief description of each style. Obviously the skills used in each carry over the other even if its just merely the concept of the skill carrying over. I know there is more to each style, I am just trying to define them as simple as possible.
as a vehement greco/free fan and an absolute despiser of folk, i will just say that free is not about taking slecetive shots... it is about taking good shots and not just diving and hanging on or looking for a scramble position... that shit gets you eaten alive in free...
and no, askren was not near the freestyle wrestler that he was in folk precisely because of his scrambling style... with that being said, he was the best at his weight in the US for a time...
i hate scrambling... it should be as a last resort in wrestling... everytime i see someone diving for an ankle all i see is exposure...
khabib fucking wrecks him in wrestling even after fatigued. there's levels to this shit. fuck u if u disagree
Ben is a more accomplished wrestler than Khabib.
It’s possible Khabib outwrestles Ben. But it’s not likely. Ben’s credentials as a wrestlers are far better.
credentials are out the window tbh, this became painfully clear when saki got ko’d by rountree (even when crocop got ko’d by randleman)
fedor also easily outstruck cc for an entire fight
on papaer, based on credentials, shouldnt have ever hapened in a million years... but mma is crazy
it's all about excecution, and at the moment, khabib in incomparable. more explosive than askren, against much tougher quality competition, and under much more intense pressure. im sure askren will do very well in the ufc, but he'll look average at 170... not champion material that ive seen but def a very tough contender.
name 1 top wrestler Khabib took down and who says credentials out the window ( you )
I provided you 2 of the greatest examples in history (plus take a look at overeem vs ANYONE who has KO'd him on the feet... or how about jbj outwrestling DC in their first fight... ETC ETC ETC)
credentials dont mean SHIT anymore in today's MMA. odds are created due to MOMENTUM and feats, not credentials. askren has not performed more incredible feats than khabib, to suggest he has is utter nonsense.
khabib's grappling based on who has has wrecked on his warpath is a clear cut above asken's. khabib has made all his opponents look like children - whereass askren looks awkward, lazy, sloppy with his grappling. im not the only who thinks this neither. askren is pure technique - khabib may not be the most technical grappler ever but he's explosive, gritty, and puts on a show when he smothers ppl. you simply cannot say the same about askren YET. for this reason, khabib would definitely be a HEAVY favorite to beating askren... in any area of the fight game.
Credentials absolutely mean something. If you ran a statistical analysis of MMA wrestling stats measured against NCAA accomplishments, the results would be a remarkable correlation.
Slowshot - Also, for Winston Wolf, I would agree that Olympic Gold is a more impressive accomplishment than NCAA title, THAT SAID, I don't quite think that's the argument that fan4000 is making.
I THINK the argument that he’s making (and fan4000 can correct me if I’m wrong) is as follows:
Ben very well may be as good at Folkstyle as Yoel is at freestyle.
a) Folkstyle is different enough from freestyle that success at one is not necessarily a complete proxy for skill at the other. There’s a LOT of carry over, yes, but there’s also enough different that one can be the GOAT at one, and not necessarily at the other.
b) While an Olympic Gold is more impressive than an NCAA title, Ben was more dominant in Folkstyle than Yoel was in Freestyle. It’s akin to a guy averaging 45 a game in Mid-Major basketball. Is he a better player than the guy averaging 20 a game at Kentucky? I don’t know, but it’s an interesting discussion to have. Yes, Yoel was a great freestyle wrestler, but nobody mentions him when they’re discussing “the greatest who ever did it”. Askren is in that conversation in Folkstyle.
I’m not saying I have a strong opinion one way or the other, just that I don’t think fan4000 is coming out of cloudcuckooland with his reasoning.
he had valid points i had him mistaken for guy giving Wiggum a hard time.People dont mention Yoel because most Americans dont follow international especially if its not someone from USA.BUt both are top tier
the only difference i see in the level of askren vs khabib is that khabib doesn't mind taking a smack on the way, whereas, askren is totally about taking absolutely no damage... that is why askren looks somewhat sloppy in comparison on his takedowns... shooting from extreme space... but once he gets ahold of you, he has more tools than khabib... they are both equally dominant
OP makes some good points, but I've never really heard anyone say he's the best because of his amateur accomplishments. That's is definitely factored in, but it's not everything. And who has even been able to stop his takedowns in MMA, let alone outwrestle him? He's a lot like Khabib in that regard. I'd love to see those two scrap. Both have garbage standup and world class wrestling.
khabib fucking wrecks him in wrestling even after fatigued. there's levels to this shit. fuck u if u disagree
Ben is a more accomplished wrestler than Khabib.
It’s possible Khabib outwrestles Ben. But it’s not likely. Ben’s credentials as a wrestlers are far better.
credentials are out the window tbh, this became painfully clear when saki got ko’d by rountree (even when crocop got ko’d by randleman)
fedor also easily outstruck cc for an entire fight
on papaer, based on credentials, shouldnt have ever hapened in a million years... but mma is crazy
it's all about excecution, and at the moment, khabib in incomparable. more explosive than askren, against much tougher quality competition, and under much more intense pressure. im sure askren will do very well in the ufc, but he'll look average at 170... not champion material that ive seen but def a very tough contender.
name 1 top wrestler Khabib took down and who says credentials out the window ( you )
I provided you 2 of the greatest examples in history (plus take a look at overeem vs ANYONE who has KO'd him on the feet... or how about jbj outwrestling DC in their first fight... ETC ETC ETC)
credentials dont mean SHIT anymore in today's MMA. odds are created due to MOMENTUM and feats, not credentials. askren has not performed more incredible feats than khabib, to suggest he has is utter nonsense.
khabib's grappling based on who has has wrecked on his warpath is a clear cut above asken's. khabib has made all his opponents look like children - whereass askren looks awkward, lazy, sloppy with his grappling. im not the only who thinks this neither. askren is pure technique - khabib may not be the most technical grappler ever but he's explosive, gritty, and puts on a show when he smothers ppl. you simply cannot say the same about askren YET. for this reason, khabib would definitely be a HEAVY favorite to beating askren... in any area of the fight game.
Credentials absolutely mean something. If you ran a statistical analysis of MMA wrestling stats measured against NCAA accomplishments, the results would be a remarkable correlation.
Credentials also don’t guarantee anything.
if JBJ (who quite honestly, in pure wrestling rankings, doesn’t even crack top 20 AL TIME, while cormier clearly does) can outperform dc in grappling in a fight, this will forever prove comparing credentials going into an MMA FIGHT is a waste of time.
khabib may not be at an olympic level of wrestling like askren may be, but when it comes to utilizing his MMA grappling, in an MMA FIGHT, khabib is several levels beyond askren for sure. just watch their highlight side by side and tell me askren is on the same level.... he is not as of today.
Man, I don’t know what to tell you. There is a difference between outliers and trends.
You have spotted outliers. The trend is that credentials absolutely mean something. They just don’t guarantee anything.
the only difference i see in the level of askren vs khabib is that khabib doesn't mind taking a smack on the way, whereas, askren is totally about taking absolutely no damage... that is why askren looks somewhat sloppy in comparison on his takedowns... shooting from extreme space... but once he gets ahold of you, he has more tools than khabib... they are both equally dominant
skillwise JBJ could make it very close to the olympics but you are correct, pure ranking, he has never ranked significantly ever. which makes his dc performance and his grappling match vs hendo impressive.
that being said, you've been watching askren look like a khabib vs nobodies while khabib has looked like an askren against elite 155 fighters. if both are equally dominant, given that khabib has objectively faced much tougher fighters, that would mean that naturally khabib has shown to be the most skillful & dominant fighter than askren.
there's literally no evidence that suggests khabib would get outwrestled in an MMA fight by askren. absolutely none.
khabib is the fedor emelianenko of 155. no can defense.
comparing grappling in an MMA fight to pure wrestling is ridiculous... JBJ didn't have the wrestling skill and most importantly the work ethic to be anything but an after thought in pure wrestling... he is an athlete and that is it... MMA lacks real athletes in anything close to their prime... JBJ had no choice but to go into MMA because he is a washout in every other aspect of his life...
conor went a whole round without taking any damage from khabib at all while being underneath him and we all can agree that askren has fought opponents with much better ground games than conor and yet all of them get beat up when askren is on top of them... and askren has fought legitimate guys... this has been well documented... he just made them look like nobodies... just like khabib has...
in a pure grappling match i pick askren over khabib 9 out of 10... and i do that without hesitation...
in an MMA match i say it is a toss up right now...
and fuck it while we're at it i would favor BOBBY KNUCKLES to outwreslte askren too. BK's wrestling, given how amazing he has performed against Yoel's onslaught of extremely dangerous wrestling, would def favor BK if he ever wrestled askren. i dont care how top tier askren's wreslting is, it's not much beyond 200lbs of lean expolosive cuban missile olympic wrestling.
in short, askren is not the best wrestler in mma, to claim such is to be absolutely ignorant of the sport of MMA.
only one being ignorant here is you.Askren is a 2x ncaa winner and Olympic athlete He may or not be the best wrestler in mma but he is for sure one of them.In a straight wrestling match i thnk he would tech fall Khabib free or greco,MMA is a fight.In a fight i think it be a toss up
the only difference i see in the level of askren vs khabib is that khabib doesn't mind taking a smack on the way, whereas, askren is totally about taking absolutely no damage... that is why askren looks somewhat sloppy in comparison on his takedowns... shooting from extreme space... but once he gets ahold of you, he has more tools than khabib... they are both equally dominant
skillwise JBJ could make it very close to the olympics but you are correct, pure ranking, he has never ranked significantly ever. which makes his dc performance and his grappling match vs hendo impressive.
that being said, you've been watching askren look like a khabib vs nobodies while khabib has looked like an askren against elite 155 fighters. if both are equally dominant, given that khabib has objectively faced much tougher fighters, that would mean that naturally khabib has shown to be the most skillful & dominant fighter than askren.
there's literally no evidence that suggests khabib would get outwrestled in an MMA fight by askren. absolutely none.
khabib is the fedor emelianenko of 155. no can defense.
comparing grappling in an MMA fight to pure wrestling is ridiculous... JBJ didn't have the wrestling skill and most importantly the work ethic to be anything but an after thought in pure wrestling... he is an athlete and that is it... MMA lacks real athletes in anything close to their prime... JBJ had no choice but to go into MMA because he is a washout in every other aspect of his life...
conor went a whole round without taking any damage from khabib at all while being underneath him and we all can agree that askren has fought opponents with much better ground games than conor and yet all of them get beat up when askren is on top of them... and askren has fought legitimate guys... this has been well documented... he just made them look like nobodies... just like khabib has...
in a pure grappling match i pick askren over khabib 9 out of 10... and i do that without hesitation...
in an MMA match i say it is a toss up right now...
wow didnt read your post before i posted but we on same page
I think Louis Santos is a better wrestler. Did you see the way that he threw Ben around in that fight?! Wow that was something to behold! It's too bad that Ben decided to poke his eyes out to get an advantage.
Santos is a lifelong judo blackbelt and called it before the fight. I watched one of his interviews prior and he said he was going to use his judo to counter Askrens wrestling and throw him around and that's exactly what he did. Askren looked like an amateur in there with a deer in the headlights look.
Askren is good but I don't see him being elite in the UFC.
Santos was a beast in that fight then missed weight badly in the rematch
as for Jones i remember watching him wrestle in high school.He is way younger but wrestled a kid from my town in the states.The first time I saw Jones I knew he could be a star in any sport.But not a fan
khabib fucking wrecks him in wrestling even after fatigued. there's levels to this shit. fuck u if u disagree
Ben is a more accomplished wrestler than Khabib.
It’s possible Khabib outwrestles Ben. But it’s not likely. Ben’s credentials as a wrestlers are far better.
credentials are out the window tbh, this became painfully clear when saki got ko’d by rountree (even when crocop got ko’d by randleman)
fedor also easily outstruck cc for an entire fight
on papaer, based on credentials, shouldnt have ever hapened in a million years... but mma is crazy
it's all about excecution, and at the moment, khabib in incomparable. more explosive than askren, against much tougher quality competition, and under much more intense pressure. im sure askren will do very well in the ufc, but he'll look average at 170... not champion material that ive seen but def a very tough contender.
name 1 top wrestler Khabib took down and who says credentials out the window ( you )
I provided you 2 of the greatest examples in history (plus take a look at overeem vs ANYONE who has KO'd him on the feet... or how about jbj outwrestling DC in their first fight... ETC ETC ETC)
credentials dont mean SHIT anymore in today's MMA. odds are created due to MOMENTUM and feats, not credentials. askren has not performed more incredible feats than khabib, to suggest he has is utter nonsense.
khabib's grappling based on who has has wrecked on his warpath is a clear cut above asken's. khabib has made all his opponents look like children - whereass askren looks awkward, lazy, sloppy with his grappling. im not the only who thinks this neither. askren is pure technique - khabib may not be the most technical grappler ever but he's explosive, gritty, and puts on a show when he smothers ppl. you simply cannot say the same about askren YET. for this reason, khabib would definitely be a HEAVY favorite to beating askren... in any area of the fight game.
Credentials absolutely mean something. If you ran a statistical analysis of MMA wrestling stats measured against NCAA accomplishments, the results would be a remarkable correlation.
Credentials also don’t guarantee anything.
if JBJ (who quite honestly, in pure wrestling rankings, doesn’t even crack top 20 AL TIME, while cormier clearly does) can outperform dc in grappling in a fight, this will forever prove comparing credentials going into an MMA FIGHT is a waste of time.
khabib may not be at an olympic level of wrestling like askren may be, but when it comes to utilizing his MMA grappling, in an MMA FIGHT, khabib is several levels beyond askren for sure. just watch their highlight side by side and tell me askren is on the same level.... he is not as of today.
khabib fucking wrecks him in wrestling even after fatigued. there's levels to this shit. fuck u if u disagree
Ben is a more accomplished wrestler than Khabib.
It’s possible Khabib outwrestles Ben. But it’s not likely. Ben’s credentials as a wrestlers are far better.
credentials are out the window tbh, this became painfully clear when saki got ko’d by rountree (even when crocop got ko’d by randleman)
fedor also easily outstruck cc for an entire fight
on papaer, based on credentials, shouldnt have ever hapened in a million years... but mma is crazy
it's all about excecution, and at the moment, khabib in incomparable. more explosive than askren, against much tougher quality competition, and under much more intense pressure. im sure askren will do very well in the ufc, but he'll look average at 170... not champion material that ive seen but def a very tough contender.
name 1 top wrestler Khabib took down and who says credentials out the window ( you )
I provided you 2 of the greatest examples in history (plus take a look at overeem vs ANYONE who has KO'd him on the feet... or how about jbj outwrestling DC in their first fight... ETC ETC ETC)
credentials dont mean SHIT anymore in today's MMA. odds are created due to MOMENTUM and feats, not credentials. askren has not performed more incredible feats than khabib, to suggest he has is utter nonsense.
khabib's grappling based on who has has wrecked on his warpath is a clear cut above asken's. khabib has made all his opponents look like children - whereass askren looks awkward, lazy, sloppy with his grappling. im not the only who thinks this neither. askren is pure technique - khabib may not be the most technical grappler ever but he's explosive, gritty, and puts on a show when he smothers ppl. you simply cannot say the same about askren YET. for this reason, khabib would definitely be a HEAVY favorite to beating askren... in any area of the fight game.
Credentials absolutely mean something. If you ran a statistical analysis of MMA wrestling stats measured against NCAA accomplishments, the results would be a remarkable correlation.
Credentials also don’t guarantee anything.
if JBJ (who quite honestly, in pure wrestling rankings, doesn’t even crack top 20 AL TIME, while cormier clearly does) can outperform dc in grappling in a fight, this will forever prove comparing credentials going into an MMA FIGHT is a waste of time.
khabib may not be at an olympic level of wrestling like askren may be, but when it comes to utilizing his MMA grappling, in an MMA FIGHT, khabib is several levels beyond askren for sure. just watch their highlight side by side and tell me askren is on the same level.... he is not as of today.
Man, I don’t know what to tell you. There is a difference between outliers and trends.
You have spotted outliers. The trend is that credentials absolutely mean something. They just don’t guarantee anything.
i thought my examples were outliers too until you realize, it happens CONSTANTLY. like an insane amount. ngannou KOing reem, bk neutralizing yoel’s wrestling, jbj more than holding his own against hendo and dc, rountree koing saki, ben rothwell choking out barnett. it’s to a point in ELITE MMA that a specialist vs a non-specialsit will no longer liekly result in a one-sided fight in that area anymore, it’s a tossup. people are giving tossups when discussing olympic wrestler vs non-olympic. that should tell you all ou need to know about 2018 elite MMA.
things like this are starting to become the norm. credentials on paper in this day in MMA dont really determine your MMA Level. MMA feats do.
Askren is not the best wrestler MMA has ever seen, randleman and mark coleman back in the day would smoke him, and DC smokes him today. he certainly isnt the best MMA grappler either, khabib has proven himself to to be far more effective against tougher mma competition. and some are even arguing yoel would beat him too.
add BK to the list as well. if a monster like yoel wasnt able to do much effective grappling against him, how would askren?
in short, askren is just not the best grappler in mma, it's like saying anthony is the world's greatest striker just based off the showtime kick lol
this is ridiculous... askren certainly is in the discussion of best wrestlers to ever come into MMA... it is not even arguable... 4X D1 AA... 2X National D1 champ... hodge trophy winner... all time pins leader in D1 wrestling... olympian... very realistic to imagine if that he had continued he would have been multiple time world team and olympian...
derrick lewis would smash cejudo in a wrestling match because he is over twice his size...
lewis is a better wrestler than cejudo?
really?
this is your argument?
I don’t agree, but there is a purity of argument there.
There’s a line of reasoning that says “heavyweight is the only class that really matters, and the only reason they have the lighter classes is to give the little guys a chance to compete. If you put each guy in a ring, and said “fight”, the heavyweight champ would win, so he’s the best, and every thing else is really no different than women’s mma, or midget mma”