Askren shut out tonight against Jordan Burroughs

Underground
81
FatBuddha - 
wiggum - 
Jacinto - 
wiggum - 
Wasa-B - Dam, now that's a blast double. Was Ben smiling when he got dumped? Double leg ippon.

Technical question: is that style that Burroughs does with the head ramming thru the solarplex area pretty widespread or is that a Burroughs thing? Would that work well for MMA to defend against guillotines when you shoot with head to the side?

It’s definitely an ‘alternative’ style of double legging. Not the norm and would surely be helpful for submission defense. It existed long before Burroughs, but Burroughs is the undisputed master of it. If Burroughs innovated, it’s in his reliance on it and his willingness to go there from his knees.

It’s among the most timing dependent moves in wrestling.

It’s actually the proper way to shoot a double and not an alternative style.

You are wrong.

I’m not sure how much experience you have in the sport. But, the dominant technique in terms of what is taught and what is executed has the head further to the side than JB uses it. That’s why people call it a Burroughs Double. It’s different than a typical double.

Don’t take my word for it, though. Take Dan Gable’s: Dan Gable - Leg double Attacks - YouTube

Or Cary Kolat’s: Wrestling Moves KOLAT.COM Double Leg Takedown & Finish - YouTube

Or Sergei Belaglozgov’s: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x62bubw

Or Bruce Baumgartner’s: Wrestling Training | Videos, News, & Articles - FloWrestling

Or Bekzod Abdurakmonov (who owns a tech over JB, as well as some losses): Wrestling Training | Videos, News, & Articles - FloWrestling

Or Henry Cejudo’s: Double Leg To Turk Finish by Henry Cejudo - YouTube

Or Damian Hahn’s: Damion Hahn double and single - YouTube

Or Hodge Trophy winner, Ben Askren’s: Double leg takedowns video 2 - YouTube

hahaha, talk about supporting your point with evidence! And thanks for the great list of links too, voted up.

lol, thanks.

82
wiggum -
Stu Cazzo -

GSP loves the blast double

GSP definitely comes the closest. He doesn’t explicitly hit a blast double; I think he lowers his level and drives–whether his head is on the side or the chest doesn’t really matter to him.

So, why don’t we see blast doubles more in MMA? A Burroughs double requires lowering your level a LOT and blasting UP. That’s really hard in MMA where you can’t level change as much and the initial stance is much higher than in wrestling. When your head is on the side, you have a bunch of options other than driving; you can cut the corner, get to the cage, etc.

Related, iirc, Jones has hit takedowns off the cage where his head is on the chest.

I'm guessing 3 things:

- I think that the trad'l dbl takes your head off the center line and might be safer against knees.

- I think the trad'l dbl lands you in a more dominant position afterwards...at least half guard if not side control. Seems like you'd land in full guard (without having good posture positioning) with your head in the center.

- I think that doubles aren't as popular in general in the open space in the center of the mat and usually take place against the cage so more of the training is taking place there.

83

Has Burroughs ever mentioned pursuing MMA?

84
Wasa-B - Wiggum: "I got lucky. I'm naturally a southpaw kickboxer and a righty wrestler. It means my right leg is the lead regardless."

That is really rare, aint it?

Also, thanks for that Kev Lee clip! I believe I have seen Mendes show the same sequence with the left hook / shoot double threat. I have zero MMA training but from just fucking around with this stuff on my own, it would seem that the requiring of a striking combo that transitions a stance switch is not nearly as fast/efficient/ready to go as shooting from the same striking stance.

Again, the prime example would seem to be GSP’s double threat stance with the jab and shoot. He also has a lower stance than a typical striking stance to jab as well. He has more weight on the lead left foot to already be somewhat lowered for the shoot but can still pop the jab just as well.

I couldn’t find the Mendes clip I was thinking of BUT…found a very interesting clip of some angle creating from strikes to set up the td. He does enter “shooting right” (head on opponent’s left, right leg forward) but the way it’s set up is real interesting: Chad Mendes technique| Striking to Takedowns from Different Angles - YouTube

The stance switch is efficient if you have already thrown a couple of 1-2s. Switch stances WITH an overhand, not after it.

85

2000×1125 460 KB

86
Meatgrinder -
wiggum -
Stu Cazzo -

GSP loves the blast double

GSP definitely comes the closest. He doesn’t explicitly hit a blast double; I think he lowers his level and drives–whether his head is on the side or the chest doesn’t really matter to him.

So, why don’t we see blast doubles more in MMA? A Burroughs double requires lowering your level a LOT and blasting UP. That’s really hard in MMA where you can’t level change as much and the initial stance is much higher than in wrestling. When your head is on the side, you have a bunch of options other than driving; you can cut the corner, get to the cage, etc.

Related, iirc, Jones has hit takedowns off the cage where his head is on the chest.

I'm guessing 3 things:

- I think that the trad'l dbl takes your head off the center line and might be safer against knees.

- I think the trad'l dbl lands you in a more dominant position afterwards...at least half guard if not side control. Seems like you'd land in full guard (without having good posture positioning) with your head in the center.

- I think that doubles aren't as popular in general in the open space in the center of the mat and usually take place against the cage so more of the training is taking place there.

Good stuff. I agree with each reason. Those three, plus my point about level changes/blast direction all help explain it.

87

Props to Ben. 

Not going to shit on a guy who actually gets in there and does it. 

88
Wasa-B -
5 o clock shadow - 
Wasa-B -
5 o clock shadow - 
Wasa-B - Dam, now that's a blast double. Was Ben smiling when he got dumped? Double leg ippon.

Technical question: is that style that Burroughs does with the head ramming thru the solarplex area pretty widespread or is that a Burroughs thing? Would that work well for MMA to defend against guillotines when you shoot with head to the side?

Mo Lawal also had a fucking terrific blast double.  I thought he’d own people in MMA with it after I watched him clean house with the blast double in “Real Pro Wrestling.”  However, I haven’t seen Mo hit a single blast double in MMA.

 

I’ll also go out on a limb amd say that Mo would’ve had more success if he stuck with wrestling instead of transitioning to MMA.

Back to the blast double in MMA -it seems like a perfect tool.  It doesn’t require you to get super low -just a quick, slight level change and you flatten you opponent.  However, I can’t recall a single one in MMA off the top of my head.  It was never my move, so maybe Wiggum can elaborate on the finer more technical points of this move.

You cant recall a single blast double pulled off in MMA?

Not off the top of my head.  What about you Wasa B?  Who have we seen level change and run right through someone?

I would say countless fights but are you talking exactly like how JB does it? Like level changing to the knees? Im just talking normal doubles where they blast thru. That’s a pretty standard MMA td, no? But sure, not with lowering to the knees and blasting from there…

Blast double as in head in the center of the opponent’s chest.  As Wiggum said, even GSP would slide his head to one side or the other.  In fact, I seem to recall GSP often  penetrating with a double and then switching to a knee tap and running through his opponent.

There are all kinds of different names for the same techniques. But I’m using the term “blast double,” to specifically refer to the head in the chest double, not just any explosive double.  

89

Burroughs would be a force to be reckoned with in MMA if he could learn to throw some punches.

90
5 o clock shadow - 
Wasa-B -
5 o clock shadow - 
Wasa-B -
5 o clock shadow - 
Wasa-B - Dam, now that's a blast double. Was Ben smiling when he got dumped? Double leg ippon.

Technical question: is that style that Burroughs does with the head ramming thru the solarplex area pretty widespread or is that a Burroughs thing? Would that work well for MMA to defend against guillotines when you shoot with head to the side?

Mo Lawal also had a fucking terrific blast double.  I thought he’d own people in MMA with it after I watched him clean house with the blast double in “Real Pro Wrestling.”  However, I haven’t seen Mo hit a single blast double in MMA.

 

I’ll also go out on a limb amd say that Mo would’ve had more success if he stuck with wrestling instead of transitioning to MMA.

Back to the blast double in MMA -it seems like a perfect tool.  It doesn’t require you to get super low -just a quick, slight level change and you flatten you opponent.  However, I can’t recall a single one in MMA off the top of my head.  It was never my move, so maybe Wiggum can elaborate on the finer more technical points of this move.

You cant recall a single blast double pulled off in MMA?

Not off the top of my head.  What about you Wasa B?  Who have we seen level change and run right through someone?

I would say countless fights but are you talking exactly like how JB does it? Like level changing to the knees? Im just talking normal doubles where they blast thru. That’s a pretty standard MMA td, no? But sure, not with lowering to the knees and blasting from there…

Blast double as in head in the center of the opponent’s chest.  As Wiggum said, even GSP would slide his head to one side or the other.  In fact, I seem to recall GSP often  penetrating with a double and then switching to a knee tap and running through his opponent.

There are all kinds of different names for the same techniques. But I’m using the term “blast double,” to specifically refer to the head in the chest double, not just any explosive double.  

I think Lesnar hit multiple head-in-the-chest double legs on Herring.

91

From JB's Instagram:

I was a 19-year-old college sophomore when I met @benaskren for the first time. Fresh off a historic collegiate career, Ben was widely recognized as the best wrestler of his era regardless of weight – he was an icon in a sport lacking big personality. Less than a year after graduating, he made the 2008 Olympic team at 163 pounds, my current weight class.

Meanwhile I was a 150-pound kid on the USA junior team, sitting on the edge of the mat during Olympic Team practice, hoping to not only pick up some technique, but maybe get to rub shoulders with some Olympians. As I sat in that sweaty wrestling room on those humid summer afternoons watching them prepare for the Games, my Olympic aspirations were born. Little did anyone know that I was going to be the man that would succeed Ben Askren.

Fast forward more than 10 years to this past Monday night. Both Ben and I walked down the stairs of the 200 section of the Hulu Theatre heading for the raised mat on a platform in an arena where we were the headliners.

Ben, the former wrestling icon turned MMA superstar. Me, once just a young matside dreamer turned wrestling legend. And more than 6,000 fans to watch it all.

Regardless of the result, I knew this year’s Beat the Streets event was going to be epic.

To Ben - What you and I were able to do Monday night was incredible. Thank you for your willingness to put your reputation, and more importantly your health on the line for the sake of the sport that bred you.

For a few hours, the wrestling and MMA worlds stood still, and together, and wondered if you’d be able to – as you’ve done many times in the past – shock the world. But instead you got double-legged, more than once. All jokes aside, this match truly wasn’t about winning or losing, but rather supporting young kids in need and growing our sport. Because of your willingness to step toe-to-toe with me, countless new eyes have been drawn to wrestling.

Something Ben said at Sunday’s press conference really resonated with me. “Stepping up to a challenge doesn’t mean just saying yes when you know you can win,” he said, “but saying yes even when you know that you could get your butt kicked.”

•

That’s heart. Respect.

92

My issue is certainly not with Ben, I have all the respect in the world for him for competing. My issue is with his fans greatly over estimating his ability. 

93

^^Did you see a single person on this forum predict Ben or even give him a chance?

94
Animal Mother -

My issue is certainly not with Ben, I have all the respect in the world for him for competing. My issue is with his fans greatly over estimating his ability. 

And because he seems like a prick 

95
Animal Mother -

My issue is certainly not with Ben, I have all the respect in the world for him for competing. My issue is with his fans greatly over estimating his ability. 

Overestimating him in regards to what?  Winning a belt in the UFC?

96
wiggum - ^^Did you see a single person on this forum predict Ben or even give him a chance?

Yes

97

Double leg off the sage

98
Animal Mother -
wiggum - ^^Did you see a single person on this forum predict Ben or even give him a chance?

Yes

There was one or two....

Bump my thread when the matchup was announced - not one person picked Ben. 

99
Stu Cazzo - 
Animal Mother -
wiggum - ^^Did you see a single person on this forum predict Ben or even give him a chance?

Yes

There was one or two....

Bump my thread when the matchup was announced - not one person picked Ben. 

Yeah. I honestly didn’t.

100
wiggum - 
Jacinto - 
wiggum - 
Wasa-B - Dam, now that's a blast double. Was Ben smiling when he got dumped? Double leg ippon.

Technical question: is that style that Burroughs does with the head ramming thru the solarplex area pretty widespread or is that a Burroughs thing? Would that work well for MMA to defend against guillotines when you shoot with head to the side?

It’s definitely an ‘alternative’ style of double legging. Not the norm and would surely be helpful for submission defense. It existed long before Burroughs, but Burroughs is the undisputed master of it. If Burroughs innovated, it’s in his reliance on it and his willingness to go there from his knees.

It’s among the most timing dependent moves in wrestling.

It’s actually the proper way to shoot a double and not an alternative style.

You are wrong.

I’m not sure how much experience you have in the sport. But, the dominant technique in terms of what is taught and what is executed has the head further to the side than JB uses it. That’s why people call it a Burroughs Double. It’s different than a typical double.

Don’t take my word for it, though. Take Dan Gable’s: Dan Gable - Leg double Attacks - YouTube

Or Cary Kolat’s: Wrestling Moves KOLAT.COM Double Leg Takedown & Finish - YouTube

Or Sergei Belaglozgov’s: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x62bubw

Or Bruce Baumgartner’s: Wrestling Training | Videos, News, & Articles - FloWrestling

Or Bekzod Abdurakmonov (who owns a tech over JB, as well as some losses): Wrestling Training | Videos, News, & Articles - FloWrestling

Or Henry Cejudo’s: Double Leg To Turk Finish by Henry Cejudo - YouTube

Or Damian Hahn’s: Damion Hahn double and single - YouTube

Or Hodge Trophy winner, Ben Askren’s: Double leg takedowns video 2 - YouTube

Thanks for the info. My experience is limited to wrestling in high school back in the early 90’s. Our coach was an old school former collegiate wrestler that founded our school’s wrestling program and coached for 30 years and he always drilled us to shoot doubles head in center so that is what i had always assumed was the proper technique and not an alternative one.