Sugarfoot - Never seen a thread about too stringent promotions before. Makes me proud of my Caique/Eldred lineage! And from the little I've seen or heard. If the academy's black belt isn't ready to promote others, Caique does it himself.
Lol it's not about too stringent promotions, it's about someone controlling his black belts to the point of it coming across as a bit odd. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing in practice but it's much different than what you interpreted.
Being "controlled"? Lol. Whaaat? Caique is very active with his students and associations. We have Caique out to our place on average 3 times a year where he stays and does a week of classes/seminars. I have no need or desire to promote anyone to BB for the time being (I'm a second degree BB) while Caique is around and accessible to us. People know what they are getting with Caique and his association. If you are loyal to him, he is extremely loyal to you and to help you become a black belt. Caique told me when I was a purple belt that he'd make me a black belt. It's nice to have someone you admire and look up to be loyal in return. You don't see that a lot in BJJ.
JoejitsuMD - Again, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it just certainly seems beyond the norm and beyond what other old school guys including Helio followed.
It's not necessarily a "crazy" thing either. I think it helps keep Caique BJJ, his name, from being watered down. People can go elsewhere and get promoted to black belt. People also respect history, lineage and loyalty. Not saying you don't, but it's not crazy, and there is precedent. Is it crazy to openly call him crazy for doing what he was taught by Helio? Idk man, maybe ask him and see how that goes. If the question was posed in a respectful manner, you might get his reasoning instead of ours.
mideastgrappler - I don't think that's strict at all. I think the IBJJF and most others require you to be a BB for 9 years (effectively, 3rd degree) to promote another black belt.
I disagree with those ranting about how the old school way is better, trash talking these "young guys questioning old school guys and their systems." I couldn't care less about what Relson or Caiquie would have to say about requirements for getting black belts. They spout on and on about how prestigious it is to have received a black belt from them but yet when you look at it, neither of them have produced any quality black belts on a world class level, whether it be BJJ/ADCC competition, vale tudo, or mma.
Sorry, this might sound like a rant but I have trained with/attended seminars with many red & black/red belts and it seems like every time I train with another one, the experience just seems the same. A guy who has trained for a long time, got complacent with their skills to not improve much anymore and just ride out their famous name/rank. I don't get disillusioned with the rank on a pedestal anymore after numerous bad experience.
On the contrary, training with young/competitive black belts have proved to be a huge refresher for my game
So receiving a black belt is entirely based upon success in Vale Tudo, MMA, and BJJ/ADCC competition?
As probably the most active competitor in the Caique association I can tell you that his standards comprise much more than just successes on the mat. Having said that, there is nothing about his promotional standards, curriculum, or technique that has prevented me from being very successful in local, regional, and national competition from white to brown belt.
I am one of the biggest critics of the current black belt promotional 'standard' that seems to be diluted past the point of recovery, but even I believe the black belt is about more than just competition success. Give me a break. I can promise you that we have plenty of purple, brown, and black belts who are competitive and would have no trouble 'refreshing' your game.
As far as Caique not 'improving his technique', what in the blue hell are you talking about? You think because he doesn't teach the berimbolo at seminars it's some kind of reflection on his lack of improvement since he received his black belt? You sir are an idiot. I have no doubt that Caique could enter the IBJJF Master/Senior Worlds and do just fine.
It's a good thing you could care less about Caique, because I assure you he cares even less about you and your 'standards'. As a student at an academy run by four of his black belts (all with countless MMA fights, BJJ titles, etc.) I can attest to the fact that I compete monthly in big name tournaments around the country and do not feel at all held back by Caique's standards or methods.
Sugarfoot - Never seen a thread about too stringent promotions before. Makes me proud of my Caique/Eldred lineage! And from the little I've seen or heard. If the academy's black belt isn't ready to promote others, Caique does it himself.
Lol it's not about too stringent promotions, it's about someone controlling his black belts to the point of it coming across as a bit odd. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing in practice but it's much different than what you interpreted.
Please elaborate as to how his black belts are 'controlled'. Sad that receiving a black belt has become all about printing new black belts as opposed to continued learning and development.
I'm sure the next thread will be people complaining about how low the standards are at some local GB/Machado/Moreira school.
For reference, I've trained at the same Caique academy since 2007, I'm a brown belt with over 200 competition matches, I train 5-6 days a week, and there has never been a single seminar where he didn't personally show me some new detail to a move/position I've done hundreds of times. He has an extremely high standard and I'm proud to say I can look around at every other black belt in our state and have no doubt that ours have a more complete understanding of BJJ. To some people, that's still worth something.
mideastgrappler - I don't think that's strict at all. I think the IBJJF and most others require you to be a BB for 9 years (effectively, 3rd degree) to promote another black belt.
I disagree with those ranting about how the old school way is better, trash talking these "young guys questioning old school guys and their systems." I couldn't care less about what Relson or Caiquie would have to say about requirements for getting black belts. They spout on and on about how prestigious it is to have received a black belt from them but yet when you look at it, neither of them have produced any quality black belts on a world class level, whether it be BJJ/ADCC competition, vale tudo, or mma.
Sorry, this might sound like a rant but I have trained with/attended seminars with many red & black/red belts and it seems like every time I train with another one, the experience just seems the same. A guy who has trained for a long time, got complacent with their skills to not improve much anymore and just ride out their famous name/rank. I don't get disillusioned with the rank on a pedestal anymore after numerous bad experience.
On the contrary, training with young/competitive black belts have proved to be a huge refresher for my game
So receiving a black belt is entirely based upon success in Vale Tudo, MMA, and BJJ/ADCC competition?
As probably the most active competitor in the Caique association I can tell you that his standards comprise much more than just successes on the mat. Having said that, there is nothing about his promotional standards, curriculum, or technique that has prevented me from being very successful in local, regional, and national competition from white to brown belt.
I am one of the biggest critics of the current black belt promotional 'standard' that seems to be diluted past the point of recovery, but even I believe the black belt is about more than just competition success. Give me a break. I can promise you that we have plenty of purple, brown, and black belts who are competitive and would have no trouble 'refreshing' your game.
As far as Caique not 'improving his technique', what in the blue hell are you talking about? You think because he doesn't teach the berimbolo at seminars it's some kind of reflection on his lack of improvement since he received his black belt? You sir are an idiot. I have no doubt that Caique could enter the IBJJF Master/Senior Worlds and do just fine.
It's a good thing you could care less about Caique, because I assure you he cares even less about you and your 'standards'. As a student at an academy run by four of his black belts (all with countless MMA fights, BJJ titles, etc.) I can attest to the fact that I compete monthly in big name tournaments around the country and do not feel at all held back by Caique's standards or methods.
Does Caique have a curriculum thru all the belts? Is it the same or different from the Gracie Academy?
mideastgrappler - I don't think that's strict at all. I think the IBJJF and most others require you to be a BB for 9 years (effectively, 3rd degree) to promote another black belt.
I disagree with those ranting about how the old school way is better, trash talking these "young guys questioning old school guys and their systems." I couldn't care less about what Relson or Caiquie would have to say about requirements for getting black belts. They spout on and on about how prestigious it is to have received a black belt from them but yet when you look at it, neither of them have produced any quality black belts on a world class level, whether it be BJJ/ADCC competition, vale tudo, or mma.
Sorry, this might sound like a rant but I have trained with/attended seminars with many red & black/red belts and it seems like every time I train with another one, the experience just seems the same. A guy who has trained for a long time, got complacent with their skills to not improve much anymore and just ride out their famous name/rank. I don't get disillusioned with the rank on a pedestal anymore after numerous bad experience.
On the contrary, training with young/competitive black belts have proved to be a huge refresher for my game
Oh, also, I decided to do the work for you and list just a few of the successful MMA/BJJ athletes who have trained for the majority of their career directly under a Caique black belt:
Myles Jury (UFC fighter) - Black belt; trained at Warrior Way Martial Arts his entire amateur and pro career leading up to the UFC
Angelo Popofski (MMA fighter, BJJ competitor) - Black belt; currently an instructor at Warrior Way, Michigan's head Caique affiliate academy. Over 25 professional MMA fights.
Don Richard (MMA fighter, BJJ competitor) - Black belt; currently an instructor at Fuse MMA, a Caique affiliate school in Michigan. 19 professional MMA fights in three different countries.
Jason Fischer (Bellator fighter, BJJ competitor) - Purple belt under Caique before leaving to start his own school.
Alex Hodi (BJJ competitor) - Purple belt feather weight IBJJF Pan 2nd place (2014) while training at Warrior Way before moving to another school. Trained with us his entire career from age 12-19 and has had continued success at his new school.
Josh Bagalay (BJJ competitor) - Black belt; 2014 IBJJF Master world champion (30-35 division) at purple belt in his weight class and absolute; 2015 IBJJF Master worlds 2nd place weight class at brown belt.
Also, I have never once in my life heard of Caique 'spouting on' about how prestigious it is to receive a belt from him. You've clearly never met the guy and are speaking entirely out of your own ignorance to think he'd be so arrogant to say something like that. The people who talk so highly of him are largely the people who he has instructed and coached throughout their lives. You know, people like Saulo Ribeiro and such.
But hey, you sound like you've really got it all worked out.
mideastgrappler - I don't think that's strict at all. I think the IBJJF and most others require you to be a BB for 9 years (effectively, 3rd degree) to promote another black belt.
I disagree with those ranting about how the old school way is better, trash talking these "young guys questioning old school guys and their systems." I couldn't care less about what Relson or Caiquie would have to say about requirements for getting black belts. They spout on and on about how prestigious it is to have received a black belt from them but yet when you look at it, neither of them have produced any quality black belts on a world class level, whether it be BJJ/ADCC competition, vale tudo, or mma.
Sorry, this might sound like a rant but I have trained with/attended seminars with many red & black/red belts and it seems like every time I train with another one, the experience just seems the same. A guy who has trained for a long time, got complacent with their skills to not improve much anymore and just ride out their famous name/rank. I don't get disillusioned with the rank on a pedestal anymore after numerous bad experience.
On the contrary, training with young/competitive black belts have proved to be a huge refresher for my game
So receiving a black belt is entirely based upon success in Vale Tudo, MMA, and BJJ/ADCC competition?
As probably the most active competitor in the Caique association I can tell you that his standards comprise much more than just successes on the mat. Having said that, there is nothing about his promotional standards, curriculum, or technique that has prevented me from being very successful in local, regional, and national competition from white to brown belt.
I am one of the biggest critics of the current black belt promotional 'standard' that seems to be diluted past the point of recovery, but even I believe the black belt is about more than just competition success. Give me a break. I can promise you that we have plenty of purple, brown, and black belts who are competitive and would have no trouble 'refreshing' your game.
As far as Caique not 'improving his technique', what in the blue hell are you talking about? You think because he doesn't teach the berimbolo at seminars it's some kind of reflection on his lack of improvement since he received his black belt? You sir are an idiot. I have no doubt that Caique could enter the IBJJF Master/Senior Worlds and do just fine.
It's a good thing you could care less about Caique, because I assure you he cares even less about you and your 'standards'. As a student at an academy run by four of his black belts (all with countless MMA fights, BJJ titles, etc.) I can attest to the fact that I compete monthly in big name tournaments around the country and do not feel at all held back by Caique's standards or methods.
Does Caique have a curriculum thru all the belts? Is it the same or different from the Gracie Academy?
I wouldn't say there is a written curriculum for all belts after blue, necessarily, but the standard is fairly consistent from academy to academy. There are always standouts in every belt level of course, but I can tell you that nobody gets up to purple/brown without a very thorough understanding of self defense, practical technique application, and a demonstration of generally positive moral character. I've seen gifted, athletic guys who lacked some or all of those items and were 'put into the freezer' until they improved them regardless of their competition prowess.
mideastgrappler - I don't think that's strict at all. I think the IBJJF and most others require you to be a BB for 9 years (effectively, 3rd degree) to promote another black belt.
I disagree with those ranting about how the old school way is better, trash talking these "young guys questioning old school guys and their systems." I couldn't care less about what Relson or Caiquie would have to say about requirements for getting black belts. They spout on and on about how prestigious it is to have received a black belt from them but yet when you look at it, neither of them have produced any quality black belts on a world class level, whether it be BJJ/ADCC competition, vale tudo, or mma.
Sorry, this might sound like a rant but I have trained with/attended seminars with many red & black/red belts and it seems like every time I train with another one, the experience just seems the same. A guy who has trained for a long time, got complacent with their skills to not improve much anymore and just ride out their famous name/rank. I don't get disillusioned with the rank on a pedestal anymore after numerous bad experience.
On the contrary, training with young/competitive black belts have proved to be a huge refresher for my game
So receiving a black belt is entirely based upon success in Vale Tudo, MMA, and BJJ/ADCC competition?
As probably the most active competitor in the Caique association I can tell you that his standards comprise much more than just successes on the mat. Having said that, there is nothing about his promotional standards, curriculum, or technique that has prevented me from being very successful in local, regional, and national competition from white to brown belt.
I am one of the biggest critics of the current black belt promotional 'standard' that seems to be diluted past the point of recovery, but even I believe the black belt is about more than just competition success. Give me a break. I can promise you that we have plenty of purple, brown, and black belts who are competitive and would have no trouble 'refreshing' your game.
As far as Caique not 'improving his technique', what in the blue hell are you talking about? You think because he doesn't teach the berimbolo at seminars it's some kind of reflection on his lack of improvement since he received his black belt? You sir are an idiot. I have no doubt that Caique could enter the IBJJF Master/Senior Worlds and do just fine.
It's a good thing you could care less about Caique, because I assure you he cares even less about you and your 'standards'. As a student at an academy run by four of his black belts (all with countless MMA fights, BJJ titles, etc.) I can attest to the fact that I compete monthly in big name tournaments around the country and do not feel at all held back by Caique's standards or methods.
Ridiculous, these guys have confused bjj with an advanced degree and it's not. The body of knowledge is simply not that complicated. I don't know if it's an inability to lay out a clear program from A to Z, ego, unquestioned tradition, or just a money grab. The results prove it's not based on obtaining better quality as we have black belts with far fewer years performing better.
I wonder how many guys would buy into this thinking if it was applied to their education or career.
"Hey man, just keep going to class and paying tuition we'll let you know when you're ready for graduation"
"What about the curriculum and the fact that I mastered all the material you had me study, I know it and can apply it."
Munk - Ridiculous, these guys have confused bjj with an advanced degree and it's not. The body of knowledge is simply not that complicated. I don't know if it's an inability to lay out a clear program from A to Z, ego, unquestioned tradition, or just a money grab. The results prove it's not based on obtaining better quality as we have black belts with far fewer years performing better.
I wonder how many guys would buy into this thinking if it was applied to their education or career.
"Hey man, just keep going to class and paying tuition we'll let you know when you're ready for graduation"
"What about the curriculum and the fact that I mastered all the material you had me study, I know it and can apply it."
"My friend have you heard of loyalty?"
I don't have a curriculum for my students, I have skill sets that I look for at each rank. It's a lot like art as far as I am concerned, I can't perfectly articulate what it is but I know it when I see it. I also have my coach in the same city if I need another perspective.
The way I look at it is if you base promotions on a set list of techniques then someone who is able to memorize the curriculum will be able to be promoted faster than someone who can learn and develop the skills that the techniques conceptualize.
I look at BJJ as a bunch of techniques geared toward teaching you how to move people and move yourself in a grappling situation. If you can move people and only have a handful of submission techniques but can apply them consistently that is good enough for me. I feel that after blue belt a set curriculum just does not work, but what do I know?
As far as black belts promoting right away, I waited 3 years and my coach cosigned on the promotion, I'm now a 3rd and still haven't made anyone else into brown yet. I actually worry about becoming too stingy with rank as the years move on. It's usually 2+ years to blue if you're training 3 or more times a week. Purple is usually 3+ years after blue with the same training schedual. I have about 3 guys who are close to brown that have all been 3-5 years at purple.
I don't have a lot of students that compete often but every once in a while they will decide to hit a local tourney as a group and do well. But a lot of my students do travel for work and tend to hold their own, I will ask if they had fun training and they will either say yes I got beat up or yes they had some pretty good guys there. One of the two is code for I handled business but I am not sure which one, and my students know that bragging about what happens in practice is frowned upon.
As far as what other schools do, it's none of anyone's business. If you trust your instructor to train you, you should trust them in the ranking process. If you can't see the difference between you and someone who is higher ranked than you, ask your instructor what you need to improve on, they might just tell you. It took me just under 10 years with a lot of compitition wins over higher ranked people, sure I wanted to be promoted earlier but in retrospect I can see what I was missing at each rank. I am glad that people have strict standards.
Daniël Bertina - Speaking of Caique. Whatever happened to his student Mike Rose?
Not sure... others here would know better than me, but LAST I heard he had moved to the Chicago area and opened a school (Brujo BJJ) but there was some some belt drama around a student of his and he stopped being involved with the school. I thought maybe he was going to open another school, but I'm not sure that he did. This was several years back, btw. That school he started still exists as Randori BJJ .
Grand Master -- Red Belt -- 9th & 10th degree Master -- Red and Black Belt -- 7th & 8th degree Professor -- Black Belt -- 2nd through 6th degree Instructor -- Black Belt (without degrees) Assistant Instructor -- Black Belt (with plain red band) Fighter -- Black Belt (with white band)
Only a professor could promote someone to black belt which was at least a 2nd degree black belt.
We now have black belts with no degrees promoting black belts
Daniël Bertina - Speaking of Caique. Whatever happened to his student Mike Rose?
Not sure... others here would know better than me, but LAST I heard he had moved to the Chicago area and opened a school (Brujo BJJ) but there was some some belt drama around a student of his and he stopped being involved with the school. I thought maybe he was going to open another school, but I'm not sure that he did. This was several years back, btw. That school he started still exists as Randori BJJ .
Yeah, I remember he promoted a guy without Caique's approval.
And he went deep into the Ayahuasca void & never really made it out.
I have no idea how people on this forum are complaining about Caique's standards. The guy has set the bar really high, and he's from the generation which literally laid the foundation of BJJ.
If Caique's own black belts seem to be ok with his standards, what is so wrong in his curriculum? Why is it so objectionable that he wishes to set a high bar for those who will be carrying his name across their belts and teaching his curriculm?
Munk - Ridiculous, these guys have confused bjj with an advanced degree and it's not. The body of knowledge is simply not that complicated. I don't know if it's an inability to lay out a clear program from A to Z, ego, unquestioned tradition, or just a money grab. The results prove it's not based on obtaining better quality as we have black belts with far fewer years performing better.
I wonder how many guys would buy into this thinking if it was applied to their education or career.
"Hey man, just keep going to class and paying tuition we'll let you know when you're ready for graduation"
"What about the curriculum and the fact that I mastered all the material you had me study, I know it and can apply it."
"My friend have you heard of loyalty?"
LOLing at 'the body of knowledge is simply not that complicated'.
Big difference between reciting technique out of a book and applying it correctly, quickly, and smoothly under pressure... and being able to properly explain/teach it to others. Sadly, today's generation is full of people who think you can be an expert in a topic after reading a Wikipedia article and doing some Google searching. That mentality is quickly permeating into BJJ and as a result there are a ton of shitty instructor black belts who really believe they are experts.
What are your standards for 'black belt performance'? Can you lay those out clearly for me so that we can discuss? If you believe others are performing better with fewer years, I'd like to know exactly what you mean. Willing to bet there are just as many black belts with more years who perform poorly.
As far as a 'money grab', what money are you talking about exactly? Caique doesn't charge us for promotions. What money is there to be gained by waiting longer to allow black belts to promote others to black belt? Where's the revenue source for Caique in all of this, in your opinion?
abiwankinobi - I have no idea how people on this forum are complaining about Caique's standards. The guy has set the bar really high, and he's from the generation which literally laid the foundation of BJJ.
If Caique's own black belts seem to be ok with his standards, what is so wrong in his curriculum? Why is it so objectionable that he wishes to set a high bar for those who will be carrying his name across their belts and teaching his curriculm?
Yup!! I wish I could post pictures on here. Caique just posted a picture of Caique, his son, and Rickson after they just got done training. Yes...sweaty from rolling and applying their skills. Awesome picture.
abiwankinobi - I have no idea how people on this forum are complaining about Caique's standards. The guy has set the bar really high, and he's from the generation which literally laid the foundation of BJJ.
If Caique's own black belts seem to be ok with his standards, what is so wrong in his curriculum? Why is it so objectionable that he wishes to set a high bar for those who will be carrying his name across their belts and teaching his curriculm?
Yup!! I wish I could post pictures on here. Caique just posted a picture of Caique, his son, and Rickson after they just got done training. Yes...sweaty from rolling and applying their skills. Awesome picture.
Doesn't count unless you have a photo of Rickson pulling worm guard with Caique simultaneously mid-berimbolo and in the 50/50. Oh, and I hope they are both wearing all of their IBJJF medals under their gis.
Otherwise, it's just a couple of money-grabbing old guys who never produced any quality black belts.
