My ideal America is based on freedom of choice. So, on one hand I completely support Sean's right to run his event anyway he likes to because I feel his belief's, though different than mine, are his right to have. I will not support the event if my teammates do not, so that is that. What Quinn says, makes "freedom" even more difficult. Again, I think Quinn's opinion is very different than mine, but he has every right to state the way he feels, even if it is WAY out in left field.
Freedom of speech is a bitch sometimes.
Again, hope this gets resolved!
There is no since fighting over religious beliefs. Beliefs are the deepest seated material we all hold on to. So what about character? Sean is a stand-up guy who happens to believe other than most of us do. He represents Saulo, himself and his team well. I respect that.
Though my religious are quite different from his, I do respect his position. I find myself, like Angelo, not willing to tell members of my team to "sit this one out". I have encouraged members of my team to compete if they wish but given the circumstances, it will not be a team effort.
Angelo:
Sean has held tournaments before, why is this suddenly an issue now?
Quinn:
Don't you have anything better to do than spamming all of Sean's threads with ignorant bullshit?
By the way, NEWS FLASH: ADCC DOES NOT HAVE A WOMEN'S DIVISION!!
Tomato Can: Actually, it's been an issue before.
"But Sean's religious beliefs has nothing to do with being "Un-American"!"
Your right, religious beliefs have nothing to do with being "un-american" ..... and they have nothing to do with a public tournament either!!!
All Quinn is trying to say is that it's not right to bring religion into a sport for all.
I support Quinn because he's supporting me. I was pissed myself when I found out that I could not compete because of someones religion. That's discrimnation (sp?).
I was willing to fight in the men's division and all. It dont matter to me, I just want to fight. The thing that pissed me off the most about it was I asked Sean if there was a womens division and he said no. I asked if I could fight in the mens and he told me to bring my stuff and he would see what he could work out. I trained my ass off for that tournament back in SEPT and was even cutting weight for it. I had a number of people that where going to come and support, compete and watch me fight, and it wasnt till the last week before the fight that I was told I was not allow to fight. THAT, was un-cool.
If Sean don't want me to compete that's fine. But I wont be there to support in any way. Those are my beliefs.
Marie Colangelo
marie, if all quinn tried to say is that "it's not right to bring religion into a sport for all" then he should have said expressly that. but he didn't. instead what he did was disrespect someone else's religion by degrading it saying:
"... some BULLSHIT religion into the art/sport is un AMERICAN!!!"
how is sean's religion un-american in any way? the concept of america is based on the fact that, among other things, all religions are welcomed and equal. quinn's comment is not only incorrect (though he's entitled to his opinion) but it is also disgusting in its scope and disturbing to hear from someone in our community. he may not agree with sean's stance on the tournament issues but to say what he did was just ridiculous and only serves to make him look like an uninformed, intolerable ass. of course if this was his objective then i apologize since he met his goal with wholehearted success.
consider this: angelo was able to post his stance on this issue, apparently the same stance that quinn has, without being degrading or disgusting and everyone accepted it and understood. now why is that?
A girl did fight in the Sept event though. My student had to fight her.
Francis...briliant once again. You should consider law school.
Bocek is that red-headed dude from the tournament in Toronto we went to a couple summers ago I believe? If so, I'm very glad I'm in the amateur division.
Edit: LOL at TC talking shit from New York
Talking shit? You've got the wrong guy.
ok....so what are the age groups and can we weigh-in the day of the tourny???
Guys! Please don't turn this into a religious thing! Our reasons for not going were to SUPPORT OUR TEAMMATES, not to hurt Sean's tournament, also, not to 'boycott' or 'sabotage' it. Notice we are saying we are not going and not saying "we are not supporting" it. I feel the meaning behind the two wordings is key. Some of us simply chose not to go to this one...Our reason's for not going have to do w/ what goes on in the four walls of our gym and nothing else. All I can say is please read my original post very slowly and carefully word for word.
Like I said, I considered (and still do) Sean a friend, and this is nothing personal...some of us are just not going as we feel it goes against what we teach and believe at our school.
I appreciate Quinn's support in the issue, but feel he is also a little off in his reasoning. America is so great because people can believe what they want.
Please be respectful of Sean and his religion and beliefs and keep this topic of discussion away from religion.
Tomato Can...We went to the first no-gi tournament, and I competed in it. It was very small and we just assumed there were no women that competed. This past Sept. Sean held another tourny. This time it was inquired whether their would be any women's divisions. After some time, Sean finally said that he will not be able to have a women's division because of his beliefs. Some of us didn't attend and some did...Afterwards, Sean said that his next tournament would have women and he would even let Jessica run/organize it. Then after some thought he decided against it and we decided again not to attend.
Again, Tomato Can...I only posted what I did because I had heard that people were being told that we "weren't allowing our students to compete." Like I said we are letting everyone make up their own mind. So in summary, Tomato Can, this hasn't "all of a sudden" become a problem. It's been around for a while and keeps coming back around. I just want everyone to know why some of us aren't there. Hope this answers your questions.
Angelo,
I am chosing not to compete, however, I have some students that want to come over and get a taste of competition before the Arnolds. I will be there to support my guys. So I see your points and agree.
That being said, when you say "guys, please don't turn this into a religion thing" I think your wrong a little bit. If anyone turned this into a religion thing, it was Sean. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying...I could care less what religion Sean believes in or practices. I've met him a couple times (although he probably don't remember me)and he seems like a cool guy. But when you hold a public tourny and decide not to let women compete (in America) because of religion, then you open yourself up to this kind of stuff.
I read above where someone mentioned LAWSUIT. America is great because we can all believe in our own thing. But when you force your views on other people is when you get in trouble. Maybe I'm not saying it right, but think about this...what about sponsor's, or the site that holds this tourny...how do you think they would respond if someone dropped the dime to them about this.
I feel that if Sean wanted to bring his religious beliefs into this, he could have held a tourny and did a invite only type thing. But to turn it into a public event, and say he wants to make it one of the biggest events around, then to say because of religious beliefs, women are not allowed to enter, that is wrong.
S....can we weigh-in the day of the tourny and what are the age groups?
Thanks
Sean can practice whatever religion he wants; thats freedom of religion.
Quinn can say whatever he feels about that; thats freedom of speech.
I don't see why you would support one and not the other; they're both just as American.
Sean can practice whatever religion he wants...true...Quinn can say whatever he feels about that...true...but there are limits on both.
What if I held a tourny and said, No blacks allowed due to my religious beliefs? I could/would be sued...See I can practice that religion at home, or with liked minded people...no problem, freedom of religion...it's when I take that religion into the public and want everyone to support it.
I only support Quinn in his position. I think he could have put his thoughts out there in a better way.
Tomato can, I was talking to Walt about this and he said it was stupid but also said "ADCC DOES NOT HAVE A WOMEN'S DIVISION!!" and that none of us would hesitate to compete in that..I guess great minds think alike:)
Anyway, I think Angelo is following the path of the Judoka on this one. kudos to him, I could learn a few things about diplomacy from him.
if anyone has misconstrued my meanings, please re-read my posts again. you'll see that in each one i state that i recognize quinn's right to express his opinions. i never argued against that. it was only that he expressed it in such a way as to degrade someone else's beliefs, then decide to judge sean's religion and label it as "bullshit", calling it un-american. all i want to know is how it is un-american to have that religion. i never argued that he could not say what he wanted. please re-read my posts above and you'll see that.
now having said that, it is my right to practice my own freedom of speech so i'll say that a comment like that insults not just sean or me, but all of us. i find the comment extremely digusting and disturbing.
for the record, i understand both sides of this controversy and my only observation was that someone in our community was sickening enough to make a comment like that. the question i continue to pose (and haven't yet received an answer for) is very simple: HOW IS SEAN'S RELIGION UN-AMERICAN? please educate me. i'm not trying to instigate anything, i just want an answer to that one question.
on a side note: rj and tc, you guys are funny.
Fellow BJJers,
Here are some reponses to the above posts:
To my Supporters,
A Big Thank You. Prepare for a 5-Star Show with a few surprises.
Marie,
I apologize for the last event. Let me know what I can do to make it up to you.
Angelo,Quinn,
I don't think it was necessary for you to post what you did. Up until your post, the thread was positive and constructive. So I feel you both opened up a can of worms that could have been kept shut. I know both of you and have trained with both of you. You guys are very nice gentlemen. I'm glad to know you. But I feel a little betrayed by you at this point.
Angelo,
You doubt my event will be on par with the NAGA or Grapplers Quest. That's my goal and I'm going full-steam ahead despite your doubts.
Yurk,
I read your thread on the other forum. I also don't think it was necessary for you to post what you did. I mean if you don't want to compete that's ok but you didn't have to explain to the world why you're not competing. By doing so, I feel your intentions were to sabotage my event.
Guys,
These negative posts threaten to destroy all of the work I've done to present something positive. I understand if some of you don't want to support my event, but don't "bring down the house" in the process.
Is my event the only event women can compete at in the Midwest area? What about the Arnolds, Relsons, Champions Challenge, Can-American,...? Those events are well-run and have tough female competitors.
Respectfully,
Sean
Phrancis: "HOW IS SHAWN'S RELIGION UN-AMERICAN? please educate me."
I think what you meant to say is "un-educate me."
"Quincy, I think the main issue here is the REASON why there isn't a woman's division."
For the same reason there wasn't one in the prince's abu dhabi. Think about it.
I agreed with Angelo's assertion that it is merely a matter of choice in this situation and not such a big deal.
Phrancis: In case it wasn't clear, my previous comment was not in response to your comments, but instead to address some of the general opposition to Quinn's statement. However, since you want an answer to your question, and you seem to be addressing it to the thread respondants at large, I'll give you my take on it:
"HOW IS SEAN'S RELIGION UN-AMERICAN? please educate me." IMHO, his religion is not un-American, nor is the fact that he is trying to impose it on others. I believe it is inherent in the freedom of speech that Americans have a right to disrespect each other; like Sean is doing to women who would otherwise compete, and like Quinn is doing to Sean. Or were you trying to get an answer from Quinn specifically?