i quit doing the "bench as much as you can" workouts and started doing the more crossfit style workouts and noticed a HUGE improvement in my overall energy levels. Not sure what it is, but it's 2am where I am now and I'll get up after 6-7 hours of sleep and just not feel tired. It's almost annoying that I don't need as much sleep anymore ;-)
Bone,
No, he's kind of thin but 1) that doesn't always mean anything when it comes to this type of training, and 2) he has a bunch of Ross' books and talked about doing, and wanting to continue that type of hard core training.
Honestly, the circuit we did that morning was nowhere near as challenging as the workout we did Friday (which he jammed through), as well as today's PT.
SCRAP
Am I sick or whut? After reading this thread, I want to go vacation on Oahu, vist my cousins and aunties, then hele over to Scrappers to see how fast he makes me puke.
maybe it's a stupid macho thing for me but when I puke during a workout, I always feel as if that workout was more intense and therefore better overall
Here are my two cents:
Puking during a workout doesn't mean much, IMHO. Some people are more prone to it than others (that's been evident even on this thread), so it can't really be an indication of how hard you're working. FWIW, I've been training for 15+ years, and never puked, and I've had some TOUGH workouts in my day...
Puking can mean that you're out of shape, that you pushed yourself beyond your own physical limitations, that you had a completely kick-ass workout, or that you were dumb enough to eat a Big Mac right before your workout.
Too many people see Puking as some sort of "Rite of Passage"...
Anyway...
Onto the idea of PL/OL vs metcon style work:
As cool as it is to say that you can "Bench XX" or "Squat XX" or "Clean and Jerk XX," and even though those feats can be ultimately fulfilling to you, sadly, they don't have a whole lot of use in real life.
I was writing about this years ago when I wrote my first "Singles & Doubles" book. When it comes to LEO/Military work, combat sports, or really, just life in general, conditioning is the name of the game.
Now, "conditioning" is a pretty all-encompassing word, so let's break it down between cardiovascular/cardiorespiratory conditioning and muscular/strength-based conditioning.
CONT.
Cardio conditioning is fairly self explanatory, so we'll let that one lie for right now.
Muscular/strength-based conditioning is what I was writing about in my "Singles & Doubles" book. Name an instance (outside of weight lifting based competitions) in which you have to give a maximal effort inside of a few seconds, and then get to rest.
Yeah, it doesn't happen.
Real life is all about doing work - and a lot of it. How is your strength then? Are your muscles burning so bad that you can't stand it? That is what will get you through real life.
Military/LEO applications are kind of obvious - you chase down an assaliant (sp), go up a flight of stairs, scale a wall, then catch him. Not only do you not have to be sucking wind, but how is your strength and muscular conditioning? Do you still have enough strength to enable you subdue the person? What about muscular conditioning? Are your muscles burning so bad that it hurts to even grab the guy?
Combat sports are very similar. Say you're in the last minute of a wrestling match. Are you still strong? Are your forearms so fried that you can't grip your opponent?
All the 1RM/limit strength (or power, for that matter) in the world won't help you in these situations of your overall conditioning sucks.
"But Wiggy, I'm not spec ops, LEO, or a fighter. I'm just a regular dude that wants to get through life."
Fine - name a situation in everyday life that 1RM strength will be more necessary that overall conditioning. Carrying in the groceries, moving a couch, shoveling the driveway, playing with the kids, etc. All these rely on overall conditioning.
To boil it all down, 1RM strength is great and is needed. However, it's the ability to use that 1RM strength over an extended period(s) of time and under some sort of duress that is what will allow you to succeed at life.
Wiggy
Oh, and anybody that talks shit to Scrapper about his programs or workouts is nuts. Scrapper is one of the best out there...
WHO SAID I'M SHORT TEMPERED, YOU DIRTY SON OF A...
takes deep Zen breath
haha! I'm not really THAT short tempered, I just have (and always have) a very low tolerance for people that just refuse to listen to anything other than their own voice.
My workouts have always been geared towards what I know from my own experience: how to kick ass during demanding, ardous situations.
Again, from my experience, that can mean hauling heavy equipment underneath a Navy ship, launching/recovering SEALs from the back of a nuclear submarine, or competing in MMA or grappling competitions.
I've seen guys on either end of the spectrum (super strong with no endurance or super endurance with no applicable strength) suffer because their "specialization" in the "gym" didn't really carry over to what they had to deal with on the job/competition.
Of course, there's always the debate on skill vs. conditioning, but I'm not here to show you how to handle hydraulic tools, shoot a gun, throw a guy on his head, or apply the finishing triangle in the ring. That's your instructor's job.
My job is to write programs that deal with the conditioning that Wiggy talks about in his post, so that you CAN do all of those things.
If you're not interested in that kind of conditioning, WHY POST ON AN MMA FORUM? There are plenty of bodybuilding, powerlifting, etc, forums out there that you can post on.
On any given day, I'd be more than happy to listen to Shooter's advice on PL/OL, because I do think that max effort days are needed during training cycles.
However, coming onto a discussion forum and immediately bashing other forms of training, without offering anything other than snide comments, and OBVIOUSLY speaking from a lack of experience about certain situations (several people have told Shooter that these types of workouts have a higher carry over than what he suggests), will get you nothing but ignored or bashed in return.
SCRAP
Look, I never implied one way of exercise is better than another, although some definitely are. But, unless I am reading wrong I see this exact sentiment in replies to my posts. Olympic lifting (which i have done) powerlifting (which I do and compete in) and strongman (which I will be competing in this summer) are all gruelling workouts just as much as a random Crossfit workout is. Crossfit is all about elevated heart rate over time (i.e short ot no RI's) which increases your GPP, it does not make you strong and strong to me is the above sports. This is the claim that bugs me. All of the above are hard work and very physically demanding. All I was ever after was the actual science behind Crossfit workouts. Nobody can seem to explain it. I mean what is the reason behind the way programs are put together? How can 1 WOD be beneficial for everyone when everyone is different and requires different approaches to achieve the intended goals?
And let's be honest here, just how many people are training for "special ops" on this forum? I would suggest almost none. Its a fantasy world. Most of those who are truly training for such a career are not in Crossfit, or powerlifting for that matter and are more than likely not posting on an internet forum. Why train for that if you are not in it? It's like playing cowboys and Indians.
I have been in many street fights, although not many for a long time, and won some lost some no doubt about it. I have had my ass kicked more than once but I have given out a few as well. I was also an amateur boxer for 3 years, did ok at it but never persued itas a serious path. I know the conditioning it takes. I have taken BJJ as well off and on for the last 10 years. I am no expert, but I also know how it feels to be on the mat, so just because my focus and interest lies in powerlifting and strength sports does not mean I am any less of an athlete as some seem to make it sound.
I simply train for strength and explosive power simply for personal satisfaction and for the possible time where I need to move quickly and forcefully, such as in a street altercation. Street altercations are and should be over very quick. I had an altercation at the gym in December with a BB'er. My punching power was good and quick, and it did not take long to get him to the ground and control him....less than 10-15 seconds.....I was very fast and explosive. Would that happen everytime against everyone? Odds say no, there is always someone better. But, the strength/power/speed that I have due to powerlifting will give me a much better chance to end things more quickly than most and without too much damage (hopefully).
So, IMO, my strength and speed training paid off in that scenario. This would be my most common situation. I don't fight in the ring anymore, and while my conditioning is not top notch as it could be, it is decent. and that is good enough for me.
To conclude, I almost puked today after my workout, but did not push myself until I did so....so does that mean I did not push myself hard enough?? ;)
Wiggy,
"To boil it all down, 1RM strength is great and is needed. However, it's the ability to use that 1RM strength over an extended period(s) of time and under some sort of duress that is what will allow you to succeed at life. "
Maybe my workouts are different than some powerlifters, but i don't think so. Its not all about going in and doing 1 rep sets. Depending on what you are doing, there is generally varied volumes on any given day. I "carry the groceries, play with my kids, carry the laundry baskets" etc I even carry my daughter on my back up 4 flights of stairs when she goes to bed and she is over 100#.....all without problem. Sure, there are powerlifters with the big bellies with big bags of ho hos for breakfast lunch and supper, but not all. As a matter of fact I think that is changing quite a bit to the opposite where more and more powerlifters are in better overall condition....unlike old school lifters.
"To conclude, I almost puked today after my workout, but did not push myself until I did so.."
So I create a workout that makes someone puke and I'm a bad trainer, you do a work out that you could have puked and that's fine.
shooter -- CrossFit does incorporate the things that you say make you strong (O-lifting and powerlifting), so it seems illogical, even by your own argument, that you say CrossFit can't make you strong.
Oh brother...this will never die. Crossfit willnever make you stronger in a powerlifting or olympic lifting sense. 1 Me (or so called) day once in awhile will not cut it. And the using weights and different exercises with no RI, or very short as Crossfit does, will definitely not make you stronger, that is fact. You cannot lift heavy weights with short to no RI's. Impossible. No RI's and using heavier weight is a recipe for disaster and serious injury. I just watched a Crossfit video of girls who were doing a "strength test". It should have been named a "Dangerous Endurance Test", not strength. The form they had as time went on was scary to say the least. Before you say that your students keep adding weight to the bar, maybe clue us in if they ar enew to the fitness scene. I would bet they are so of course they will show progress.
Crossfit = general GPP, not strength/power.
I will put it this way, when I see a Crossfitter (and performing Crossfit type workouts only!) enter and end with a competitive total in a powerlifting competition, then I will humble myself and admit defeat. I give you my word.
" CrossFit does incorporate the things that you say make you strong (O-lifting and powerlifting), "
Yes I give you that. The exercises used for Crossfit are the ones that work in no doubt about that. The way they are put together in sets, reps, and especially RI's are what makes the difference, as I mentioned.
Shooter,
Name one effective S+C program that revolves around an individual program for each athlete. Do you think each NFL/NHB player has a seperate program? Have you ever watched a college team train? They all do the same drills, with different loads of course but it would be impossible to give each athlete their own individual program based on their "needs."
Look, I never implied one way of exercise is better than another, although some definitely are.
A competitive powerlifter might not use a Crossfit workout because it's not suited to his/her goals. Likewise, someone stiving to be in "spec-ops" shape wouldn't stick to JUST PL/OL.
So, contrary to what you may think, certain ways of training ARE better for achieving certain goals.
Crossfit is all about elevated heart rate over time (i.e short ot no RI's) which increases your GPP, it does not make you strong and strong to me is the above sports.
No, Crossfit (and my own workouts) are about increased work capacity over time. Also, your definition of "strength" is exactly that: your definition.
And let's be honest here, just how many people are training for "special ops" on this forum? I would suggest almost none. Its a fantasy world. Most of those who are truly training for such a career are not in Crossfit, or powerlifting for that matter and are more than likely not posting on an internet forum. Why train for that if you are not in it? It's like playing cowboys and Indians.
There are a lot of active military and prior military folks on this forum. Using your reasoning, why train at all if you're not competiting in anything?
People use Spec-ops guys as a measure of fitness because those guys are legendary for their conditioning. You don't have to be in actual training to be a SEAL, but there's nothing wrong with training like they do.
But, the strength/power/speed that I have due to powerlifting will give me a much better chance to end things more quickly than most and without too much damage (hopefully).
And if it doesn't end quickly? Maybe you should hop over to Tony Blauer's forum and tell him he's wrong for advocating a Crossfit style workout. I know he's been teaching combatives to military and LEO's for over 20 years, but you probably know more than he does about confrontation and what it takes to win a fight.
To conclude, I almost puked today after my workout, but did not push myself until I did so....so does that mean I did not push myself hard enough?? ;)
You just can't let that go, can you? Man, you are dense.
SCRAP
"All I was ever after was the actual science behind Crossfit workouts. Nobody can seem to explain it."
Have you ever bothered to go to CrossFit.com? Provided you have adequate reading comprehension, half an hour of research should clear up the misconceptions you are clearly exhibiting.
"30 minutes on research is more than most people on this forum have
done in their entire lives"
-paraphrased from toddseney
heh
I don't think Glassman spews bullshit, I think some of the people on his forums get a bit carried away and screw it up for everyone else.
At the CF cert I attended, he answered every question that was brought up, steered clear of most of the dogmatic BS you get at other certs, and if he didn't have an answer he would say "Fuck, I don't know!" Pretty straightforward dude, from what I could tell.
Just my $.08
SCRAP
gusto, you are taking my quote out of context. I was referring to the actual act of reading the website as doing research, not claiming that everything posted there was peer reviewed double blind etc.
I think that CF catches a lot of heat for the tone of some answers in the FAQ, in particular the statements that bodybuilders don't punch as well as athletes and that CF is a better mass building program than bodybuilding without steroids.
However, there is a ton of valuable information there and I think it would behoove anyone interested in fitness to check it out, especially if they intend on getting into internet "discussions" about the topic.
PS LOL at Gaydar using my quips on the NFL forum against me!