while he is well matched against BJ... he just isn't as great of a fighter IMO.
Do you think Edgar would have lost to a prime Pulver? Drawn with Uno? Which of BJ's lightweight wins do you think Edgar would not have shared had he fought those same opponents?
goku - nope...got dominated by gray...his dancing style is just not a great matchup for bj
i love the typical one example explanation of why a fighter shouldnt be considered the best in any respective argument.Fedor,subbed in under a minute,he sucks.Although i think hes overrated,more so because overall competition,this is typical.
What's really hilarious about goku saying that is then he turns around and points to Edgar's decision loss to Maynard as a reason he cannot be in the "best" discussion. Funny how in that instance, Maynard's "style is just not a great matchup for" Edgar.
lionsoul - Touche... LOL... But if you consider GSP to be a great WW (which I do... I think he is the 2nd best WW to have ever lived)... it is a great compliment.
Let me guess, you think Matt Hughes was better?
Is GSP better than Hughes now? Yes. In terms of overall career... No.
Before his fight with GSP, Matt Hughes went 19-1 (with his only loss to BJ Penn). Of the 19 wins, 16 were finishes and only 3 were decisions.
Since his fight with Matt Serra, GSP has had the majority of his fights with WW opponents go to decision. He will have to begin taking more risks and be a finisher to end up as the greatest WW ever IMO.
I think he will get there... but he needs 1-2 years of fights that he must win with FINISHES.
Sure... but that has been BJs problem throughout his career. He NEVER actually has a gameplan... and has pretty much relied on his natural skills throughout his entire career...
eventually... now that he is getting older... it is going to catch up with him unless he finds a coach or team to train with.
That's part of what makes him so fun to watch. He's kind of a throw back. He looks at fights LIKE a fight. He doesn't think about winning rounds or scoring points, he just wants to wreck people to show that he's the man. That's why he went up in weight so many times too. He just wanted to prove that he was the best ever. He wasn't afraid of guys bigger then him. Fucken dude fought Machida.
Obviously with that comes a big ego and the inability to believe a loss is anything other then a fuck up on his part or the judges.
Nonlinear - lol @ Shinya Aoki being ranked higher than Florian, Edgar, or any top LW in the UFC after Melendez embarrassed him so bad he started crying.
Florian would take Aoki's lunch money and make it look so easy Aoki would start to cry... again.
goku - nope...got dominated by gray...his dancing style is just not a great matchup for bj
So who's the best? Gomi, who got choked out in seconds by Aurelio at his peak, dominated by BJ, choked out by Diaz?
Only once has BJ ever put more than 3 wins in a row together in his entire career.
Aoki got KTFO by Hansen and looked like an absolute amateur against Melendez.
It's funny how quick people are to dismiss Frankie from the discussion because they don't like his style or whatever. The guy's one loss was a classic "control" decision a couple years ago from a fighter who is still undefeated. Yet you people are laughing at the notion of him being in "greatest" consideration even if he beats TWICE the guy most say has that title.
his dancing style is just not a great matchup for bj
Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to be a great matchup for anybody else, either.
getting choked or kod very quickly is very different than losing a clear cut dominating decision recently...there is no way frankie is considered the best lw of all time..jesus christ are you really this stupid?
edgar needs to beat more top 5 LW's if he's able to beat penn again. he still has to fight guys like florian, george, dunham, and even try to avenge his loss to maynard.
How hilarious, haters pretending that GSP never finishes fights when only 35% of his wins are via decision compared to Penn's 20% decision rate. What a massive difference there...
GSP has finished 8/20 fights via KO and BJ has finished 6/15 of his fights by KO. Do the math, 8/20 = 6/15 = 40%. They've both wont the EXACT same % of their fights by KO, with GSP having 2 more KOs on his record, including the one were BJ couldn't continue and QUIT.
4/20 (25%) of GSP's victories are via sub, and 6/15 (37%) of Penn's victories are via sub. 12% difference whoopity fucking doo.
Of course then there is the fact that 6/22 (35%) of BJs fights didn't end in an exciting finish or a decision because he lost, as opposed to the 2/22 (9%) fights that GSP lost. GSP wins 90.1% of his fucking fights, super-exciting finisher BJ Penn doesn't even win 35% of the time, let alone produce an exciting finish.
getting choked or kod very quickly is very different than losing a clear cut dominating decision recently..
lol, somehow I have the strangest feeling that you would have the exact opposite opinion of a decision loss coming by way of a few takedowns in which the guy was never even kept down, in a fight in which he took no damage and was never in any kind of danger, if it were one of your idols. Just like if Edgar were choked out or KO'd "very quickly", you would not be dismissing that loss as "very different" from (and less detrimental to credibility than) losing a decision.
And lol @ the Gray loss coming "recently". EVERY other lightweight you can throw into this discussion has lost more recently than Edgar has. BJ, Aoki, Gomi, Melendez, Kawajiri. Anyone else whose name you want to throw out there? Maybe you're claiming Gray Maynard is the best LW, since not only is he undefeated, but his win over Edgar is the main thing standing in the way of Edgar being considered for that title?
there is no way frankie is considered the best lw of all time..jesus christ are you really this stupid?
Again...who is your pick, and which of that pick's big wins do you think Frankie would not also have beaten? How many losses does your pick have and how recently?
BJJkilla - edgar needs to beat more top 5 LW's if he's able to beat penn again. he still has to fight guys like florian, george, dunham, and even try to avenge his loss to maynard.
So if he beats Penn again, then who is the "best" lightweight until Edgar has the chance to take those other fights you mentioned?
Nonlinear - How hilarious, haters pretending that GSP never finishes fights when only 35% of his wins are via decision compared to Penn's 20% decision rate. What a massive difference there...
GSP has finished 8/20 fights via KO and BJ has finished 6/15 of his fights by KO. Do the math, 8/20 = 6/15 = 40%. They've both wont the EXACT same % of their fights by KO, with GSP having 2 more KOs on his record, including the one were BJ couldn't continue and QUIT.
4/20 (25%) of GSP's victories are via sub, and 6/15 (37%) of Penn's victories are via sub. 12% difference whoopity fucking doo.
Of course then there is the fact that 6/22 (35%) of BJs fights didn't end in an exciting finish or a decision because he lost, as opposed to the 2/22 (9%) fights that GSP lost. GSP wins 90.1% of his fucking fights, super-exciting finisher BJ Penn doesn't even win 35% of the time, let alone produce an exciting finish.
Nobody is "hating" on GSP. In fact... most of us believe he is the 2nd greatest Welterweight in history (this is a great compliment)...
Personally... my issues with GSP are due to his fighting style after his KO loss to Serra. He has improved his kickboxing game... but we never get to even see it...
I think GSP is willing to sacrifice his finishing rate in order to guarantee the win. It is highly effective... but very boring.
At the end of the day... while he will accumulate more wins... he is tarnishing his legacy IMO.
BTW - your statistics don't really mean anything... because most of BJs losses have come outside of the LW division. Here are the statistics within the LW division (Apples to Apples):
GSP has finished 8/20 fights via KO and BJ has finished 6/11 of his fights by KO. Do the math, 8/20 is 40% < 6/11 = 55%. BJ beats GSP by 15%.
4/20 (25%) of GSP's victories are via sub, and 4/11 (37%) of Penn's victories are via sub. BJ beats GSP by 12% difference.
Of course then there is the fact that 2/14 (14%) of BJs fights didn't end in an exciting finish or a decision because he lost, as opposed to the 2/22 (9%) fights that GSP lost. GSP beats BJ by 5%.
The most important measure IMO is FINISHES.
- BJ FINISHED 10/11 of his WINS. That is 91%
- GSP FINISHED 13/20 of his WINS. That is 65%.
- EDGAR FINISHED 3/12 of his WINS. That is 25%.
This is NOT EVEN CLOSE. If you look at GSPs fights since his loss to Serra...
- GSP finished only 3/7 fights. That is 43%.
- If you net out the 2 natural LW's he fought (BJ and Serra)...
- GSP FINISHED 1/5 of his WINS. That is a finish rate of 20%.
What it means... is since the Serra loss, GSP has only managed to finish only 1 natural welterweight.
I am not knocking GSP... he is a great fighter... but until he starts FINISHING... he will not surpass Matt Hughes as the most dominant WW ever IMO. He certainly isn't close to being as great a welterweight as BJ is a lightweight IMO.
in a span of any given 10 fights in BJ or Gomi's career,they havnt done half of what Frankie has done in his FIRST 10 fights,most of Gomi's early career competition were cans,the lw division had almost zero talent until recently,Ludwig and Pulver were considered the biggest threats,that should put it into perspective.
BJ is 12-2 at lw,if he loses he will be 12-3 at lw.Why does Frankie have to win 5 more times to be considered the best? BJ got this "award" years ago,way before he ever had 11 fights at lw,seems like a double standard to me,but then again this is common in every aspect of the BJ hype machine
Thiago Alves has a comparible record to BJ with a comparible finish percentage,he is rightfully ranked where he should be and doesnt get passes over Fitch or GSP because he is more exciting or finishes more
He also has Hughes under his belt as his biggest win as does BJ,yet if you asked fans these guys are worlds apart and Alves fights tougher competition on a consistant basis.He definitely wouldnt be considered better or ranked higher then GSP or Fitch because of his finishing percentage,yet BJ somehow would miraculously still be ranked ahead of Frankie even after a 2nd loss?
Nonlinear - How hilarious, haters pretending that GSP never finishes fights when only 35% of his wins are via decision compared to Penn's 20% decision rate. What a massive difference there...
GSP has finished 8/20 fights via KO and BJ has finished 6/15 of his fights by KO. Do the math, 8/20 = 6/15 = 40%. They've both wont the EXACT same % of their fights by KO, with GSP having 2 more KOs on his record, including the one were BJ couldn't continue and QUIT.
4/20 (25%) of GSP's victories are via sub, and 6/15 (37%) of Penn's victories are via sub. 12% difference whoopity fucking doo.
Of course then there is the fact that 6/22 (35%) of BJs fights didn't end in an exciting finish or a decision because he lost, as opposed to the 2/22 (9%) fights that GSP lost. GSP wins 90.1% of his fucking fights, super-exciting finisher BJ Penn doesn't even win 35% of the time, let alone produce an exciting finish.
If you compare their fights as champs, you get a vastly different number. Bj usually finishes his challengers when defending his belt. GSP has only finished one challenger as WW champ, and that guy was a 155'er....
Nonlinear - lol @ Shinya Aoki being ranked higher than Florian, Edgar, or any top LW in the UFC after Melendez embarrassed him so bad he started crying.
Florian would take Aoki's lunch money and make it look so easy Aoki would start to cry... again.
If you are really that fucking stupid then someone should take away your computer before you hurt yourself...
Gilbert is the EXACT PERFECT foil to Aoki:
- Great Wrestling = Aoki can't take him down
- Caesar Gracie Brown Belt = Aoki can't sub him
- Power striking = he can hurt Aoki after he keeps it mostly standing (see above)
there is NO LW IN THE WORLD besides BJ who also possesses these skills at LW.
Nonlinear - How hilarious, haters pretending that GSP never finishes fights when only 35% of his wins are via decision compared to Penn's 20% decision rate. What a massive difference there...
GSP has finished 8/20 fights via KO and BJ has finished 6/15 of his fights by KO. Do the math, 8/20 = 6/15 = 40%. They've both wont the EXACT same % of their fights by KO, with GSP having 2 more KOs on his record, including the one were BJ couldn't continue and QUIT.
4/20 (25%) of GSP's victories are via sub, and 6/15 (37%) of Penn's victories are via sub. 12% difference whoopity fucking doo.
Of course then there is the fact that 6/22 (35%) of BJs fights didn't end in an exciting finish or a decision because he lost, as opposed to the 2/22 (9%) fights that GSP lost. GSP wins 90.1% of his fucking fights, super-exciting finisher BJ Penn doesn't even win 35% of the time, let alone produce an exciting finish.
If you compare their fights as champs, you get a vastly different number. Bj usually finishes his challengers when defending his belt. GSP has only finished one challenger as WW champ, and that guy was a 155'er....
how many guys that Bj finished as champ came from the tuf house,and how many guys from the tuf house has GSP faced?