Judo resurgence in MMA?

Underground
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Seats Taken - One of my coaches is a judo black belt. He's also a pro fighter but hasn't fought in a few years. All his wins were throws straight to subs, only loss was when he found someone that could control distance well.

He uses a lot of trips and throws that wrestlers haven't seen, so it catches them off guard. Also Judo guys are awesome at hitting the submission right off of the throw.... I've only been doing Judo for a little bit (decent wrestler, purple belt, 2-1 MMA) and if you aren't PERFECT when you hit a judo throw, shits going to go bad. Unlike a double leg where you can just blast it.

Judo techniques being outside of wrestling technique is exactly what im talking about, if your opponent is clearly the better wrestler youre gonna need something outside the box, which i think judo is the answer. A trip/throw technique maybe even sutemi which wrestlers are just not used to.

I dont know why people think its THAT hard to put down 1 or 2 judo techniques in the pocket, I mean you do need to practice them every fucking day along with your MMA/BJJ training but i dont think you need a judo bb to do it, Look at the video I posted above or checkout Machida they cross trained with BJJ, worked pretty good on their takedown defense. Techniques are fairly risky, you can get your back taken if done wrong, way less exposed to hits then a double leg though.

why people keep arguing here about high level judokas in MMA I have no idea. Just saying judo techniques might be the go to for fighters haunted by wrestling, ex. McGregor

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failure at life -
factchecker -
failure at life - I swear on my life this is the absolute the truth. You can hate on me if you want but this is my honest experience between the two. I have done NO-gi grappling with an Olympic alternate in both wrestling and judo and this is my experience. Take from it what you will.

The judo guhad amazing hips. If you tried to tie up with him with any upper body throws you were going flying. You could not hit him with any outside, inside trips or any throws at all, trying anything like that only insured I was going to go flying. Anytime I attempted either a double leg, or a high crotch. It was relatively easy to get in on his legs, once in on his legs you could not stop or you were going for a ride. Once you froze it was over, you were going flying.

However, I started making faster grip transitions and hand fighting him out of position and hitting knee slides successively after my initial shot he became relatively easy to take down. He was also heavier than me but a considerable amount.

The wrestling alternate was impossible to takedown. In fact, I've never really even come close. The only time I've ever gotten in on his legs was when he allowed me. If you modified the match and gave me points for anytime I was even able to connect my hands on a shot I would still lose by tech fall in the first period regardless of whatever scoring system was used. When he did let me in on good shots I still struggled horribly to finish. If I hit all the technique with the criteria he set for me he would allow me to finish and then he would instantly escape.

There is no doubt that my wrestling friend could beat everyone on the regional mma curcuit without throwing a punch. I've never felt as helpless in any aspect of mma as I feel with him when I wrestle.

I'm confident that if you put him and the judo alternate in a gi and he had a live match with the wrestler being allowed to shot legs he would not be thrown once. He would beat the judo guy just by shooting from distance Phone Post 3.0

If both guys were in gi, that wouldn't happen. Wrestling has been with judo since Day 1.

Wrestlers would do well only if they spent tons of time on judo training.

If so, than why has shooting the legs been made illegal in Judo? If judo guys could stop it, than why ban it?

How would a gi help the judo guy when a wrestler can just shoot from the distance and get to his legs anyway?

How would the gi stop an exceptionally high caliber wrestler when he has already gotten in on the judo guys legs?

I admit that I've never trained in gi with the judo guy because I'm afraid of injury. Judging by the way he rips the knee and the grips he could make I'm afraid of injury to my neck and knees. Phone Post 3.0
Khabareli Phone Post 3.0

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Judo is a tough sport, wrestling is a tough sport. But none of them carry the risk of you ending up brain damaged for the rest of your life

So the guys who will transition to prize fighting are the hard nosed kill or be killed type of guys, in Judo it will probably be athletes from Russia and its neighbours

Teddy Riner is an athletic monster but he has lived a soft life in France, its takes a particular mentality to want to get punched, kicked and elbowed in the face

Look at Ronda, she had lost before in Judo but getting kicked in the head and her jaw broken has taken a heavy toll on her

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Guys, good discussion, keep it up, like old UG times :) Some thoughts:

-> failure, I mostly agree with you. In a no-gi grappling situation, esp takedowns, a Judo player will have trouble with a high level wrestler. Of course, it depends, consider this rare grappling match, 2 people with identical record, both from Dagestan, Russia:

Magomed Kurbanaliev (Freestyle Wrestling: European Freestyle Wrestling Champion, World Bronze Medalist) vs.
Kamal Khan Magomedov (Judo: European Judo champion, World Bronze Medalist, guy with all blue)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FuoOuPV9o

Of course, its practice fun match, but its interesting (Kurbanaliev beat Logan Stieber not long ago). You see its not that simple. In many areas in the world the 2 sports are a bit mixed.

-> These days most judo players, even Olympic level, have horrible leg takedown defense and no leg attacks. However, as I said in my post, they learn so far and they are such physical specimens and have such amazing base, that in 1 year they would be very hard to take down even by elite wrestlers, if they want to study freestyle wrestling. They are just very gifted athletes, and imo, often, more gifted than top wrestlers, because the international competition levels in Judo are higher than Wrestling.

-> I think a lot of the discussion of whether Judo adapts well to MMA somehow takes the rules of Judo today and says, the rules are do not adapt to MMA. Yes, I agree. However, these rules build amazing athletes and with that base they can adapt if they want to.

-> I can share more insights from high-level Judo training, I am good friends with few people (both guys and girls) who are going to Rio this summer for the Olympics, from Europe, the hardest region to qualify from. As I already said, these guys (and girls) are just super tough, not just physically, but mentally too. I've seen some of their injuries, I would say 99% of people would immediately quit, e.g., competing with completely torn muscles, risking career ending injuries at some tournaments, etc.

Here is a fun story. Back in December, I trained with some of them a bit, and one of them (60kg class) cranked out 82 pull ups and this was after a 2 hour judo practice. These were not the cleanest of pull ups, especially towards the end, but the first 50 or so were quite clean.

-> There is confusion about leg takedowns, they were not removed due to wrestlers at all. They were removed as people were stalling like crazy, being ineffective. Also, they wanted to differentiate Judo from wrestling. Wrestling has a very bad reputation in the Olympics now, lots of corruption, which was the real reason they really wanted to remove it from the Olympics (nobody talks about that one).

Note that its much easier to add leg takedowns and defenses to your game than it is to add hip sensitivity and explosiveness. Hip sensitivity and explosiveness (both standing and on the ground) is one of the reasons Fedor dominated people for years. That is a hallmark of high level Judo athletes and is almost impossible to get in any other way. Ronda also has it.















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btw, as some of you know, I lost my blue status and my old name ("judom") as I lost my password, so I can't post video anymore, if some blue comes here, do post the judo / wrestling youtube link in my post above.

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kevins852 -

Most of you guys are missing my point, im not saying that Judo is going to be the main style in MMA, im saying it would make a good come back trying to neutralize how dominating wrestling is. 

Granted when we know one of the fighters is better at wrestling, the other fighter has a great disadvantage, because the wrestler can dictate the fight and get the takedown, its going to be directly related to wrestling habilities, probably the only style to counter wrestling is judo dynamic techniques.

About the change in judo grabbing the legs, well I was competing when they banned it, and I had mixed feelings about, because when wrestlers were there grabbing legs all day, perhaps what judo should of done is try and deal with it but what was in trial was loosing the style of judo which is not mainly leg or base grabs but hip throws, trips, sacrifice etc. If you want to make a comparison lets say they let you throw big hooks in Taekwondo competition, its gonna ruin the style, i think that was the thought behind banning it.

And btw for anyone who thinks Judo techniques dont apply to MMA think again, they do need a grapplig or wrestling adaptation but youre crazy if you dont think for a guy that struggles with wrestling like McGregor to learn to execute and time for example a Uchi Mata or a trip would raise his defense/chances against the superior wresler.

Basically im saying most of non wrestlers or judokas should add at lease 1 or 2 judo techniques to their basic training and just put the technique down.

You know what countered a double leg takedown in a championship fight? A guillotine.

And I trained Judo Phone Post 3.0

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judom2 - Guys, good discussion, keep it up, like old UG times :) Some thoughts:

-> failure, I mostly agree with you. In a no-gi grappling situation, esp takedowns, a Judo player will have trouble with a high level wrestler. Of course, it depends, consider this rare grappling match, 2 people with identical record, both from Dagestan, Russia:

Magomed Kurbanaliev (Freestyle Wrestling: European Freestyle Wrestling Champion, World Bronze Medalist) vs.
Kamal Khan Magomedov (Judo: European Judo champion, World Bronze Medalist, guy with all blue)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FuoOuPV9o

Of course, its practice fun match, but its interesting (Kurbanaliev beat Logan Stieber not long ago). You see its not that simple. In many areas in the world the 2 sports are a bit mixed.

-> These days most judo players, even Olympic level, have horrible leg takedown defense and no leg attacks. However, as I said in my post, they learn so far and they are such physical specimens and have such amazing base, that in 1 year they would be very hard to take down even by elite wrestlers, if they want to study freestyle wrestling. They are just very gifted athletes, and imo, often, more gifted than top wrestlers, because the international competition levels in Judo are higher than Wrestling.

-> I think a lot of the discussion of whether Judo adapts well to MMA somehow takes the rules of Judo today and says, the rules are do not adapt to MMA. Yes, I agree. However, these rules build amazing athletes and with that base they can adapt if they want to.

-> I can share more insights from high-level Judo training, I am good friends with few people (both guys and girls) who are going to Rio this summer for the Olympics, from Europe, the hardest region to qualify from. As I already said, these guys (and girls) are just super tough, not just physically, but mentally too. I've seen some of their injuries, I would say 99% of people would immediately quit, e.g., competing with completely torn muscles, risking career ending injuries at some tournaments, etc.

Here is a fun story. Back in December, I trained with some of them a bit, and one of them (60kg class) cranked out 82 pull ups and this was after a 2 hour judo practice. These were not the cleanest of pull ups, especially towards the end, but the first 50 or so were quite clean.

-> There is confusion about leg takedowns, they were not removed due to wrestlers at all. They were removed as people were stalling like crazy, being ineffective. Also, they wanted to differentiate Judo from wrestling. Wrestling has a very bad reputation in the Olympics now, lots of corruption, which was the real reason they really wanted to remove it from the Olympics (nobody talks about that one).

Note that its much easier to add leg takedowns and defenses to your game than it is to add hip sensitivity and explosiveness. Hip sensitivity and explosiveness (both standing and on the ground) is one of the reasons Fedor dominated people for years. That is a hallmark of high level Judo athletes and is almost impossible to get in any other way. Ronda also has it.















You lost me when you said two things. One that the international level of Judo is higher than wrestling. You are biased, it's not possible to definitively state that one is higher than other.

Also, as I suspected for years, rousey's throws wouldn't work against a competent women. She may have great judo but all she would do in get fights was use school yard headlocks that don't work in men's mma Phone Post 3.0

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failure,

See the link I posted above.

Winning a world level medal/Olympics in international judo is harder in wrestling, there are many more people competing in Judo worldwide than in wrestling.

In wrestling you have few countries: mostly Russia and the former republics, Iran, USA, Japan occasionally, that is about it. In wrestling, entire regions of the world are basically not competitive: south america, western europe, etc, while all regions participating in wrestling participate in Judo. Note that the native wrestling styles of all former USSR countries are actually closer to Judo (they all have a gi') than freestyle.

In my view, Judo (international level, competitive) has a higher density of talent than wrestling. And also, it is widely known that in many countries (including Russia) wrestling coaches try to poach athletes from judo (usually in the ages 12-14), not the other way around.

btw, in women's judo vs. wrestling ,the difference of talent density is even greater.

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anyway, back on topic, I think, see the link above, this is the closest I think that's been posted of judo vs. wrestling with top athletes. I love wrestling and I follow it very much, etc. However, wrestling is in trouble, the rules are not good and there is massive corruption going on internationally.

btw, khabib nuramagomedov also has a very extensive, heavy judo background.

Also, failure, be careful with what you refer to as "Judo". I've discussed this very much in detail before. Some Judo styles are closer to freestyle wrestling than folkstyle wrestling is.

for instance, currently the greatest wrestler in the World, Sadulaev (2x world champ, unscored on in both championships, from Russia) was preparing for his latest competition with...the national Judo team. Go figure :)

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yes,

large part of folkstyle is riding, that part doesn't exist in Judo and doesn't exist in freestyle. Freestyle is a lot about dynamic throws and takedowns, much like Judo is nowadays. Also, some freestylers do a lot of clinch throws, and have less of a focus on leg attacks, e.g, see Geduev of Russia, similarly to Judo players, some of which do not utilize super special grips, most of the throws can be done in wrestling too.

its possible to transition from folkstyle to freestyle as we know, though not easy. Similarly, its possible to transition from certain Judo styles to freestyle, though not so easy, but the difficulty is about the same.

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judom2 - anyway, back on topic, I think, see the link above, this is the closest I think that's been posted of judo vs. wrestling with top athletes. I love wrestling and I follow it very much, etc. However, wrestling is in trouble, the rules are not good and there is massive corruption going on internationally.

btw, khabib nuramagomedov also has a very extensive, heavy judo background.

Also, failure, be careful with what you refer to as "Judo". I've discussed this very much in detail before. Some Judo styles are closer to freestyle wrestling than folkstyle wrestling is.

for instance, currently the greatest wrestler in the World, Sadulaev (2x world champ, unscored on in both championships, from Russia) was preparing for his latest competition with...the national Judo team. Go figure :)
It's ridiculous how much you try to say nurmogomedov had a judo heavy background. Most of his trips and throws come from freestyle wrestling. Just as with all the "Russian" freestyle wrestlers, of course they have a strong judo influence and they hit high level judo throws occasionally. Most had substantial freestyle wrestling backgrounds before transitioning into combat sambo.

You can point to whatever evidence you want. I'm not a wrestler, nor do I do judo but I see wrestlers as far more successful between the two. Lists of accomplished wrestlers in mma would be 2 pages long.

Velasquez, couture, cormier, Henderson, lindland, yoel Romero, Weidman, Phil Davis, king mo, Jon jones, Rashad Evans. Frankie Edgar, mendes, faber, nurmogomedov, Henry cejudo, Brock lesner, Matt hughes, Sean sherk, dillashaw, I can keep going.

Judo hasn't had nearly the success in mma and it never will. Again, I'm not a wrestler but clearly, wrestling is king Phone Post 3.0

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judom2 - failure,

See the link I posted above.

Winning a world level medal/Olympics in international judo is harder in wrestling, there are many more people competing in Judo worldwide than in wrestling.

In wrestling you have few countries: mostly Russia and the former republics, Iran, USA, Japan occasionally, that is about it. In wrestling, entire regions of the world are basically not competitive: south america, western europe, etc, while all regions participating in wrestling participate in Judo. Note that the native wrestling styles of all former USSR countries are actually closer to Judo (they all have a gi') than freestyle.

In my view, Judo (international level, competitive) has a higher density of talent than wrestling. And also, it is widely known that in many countries (including Russia) wrestling coaches try to poach athletes from judo (usually in the ages 12-14), not the other way around.

btw, in women's judo vs. wrestling ,the difference of talent density is even greater.

I don't care about women's grappling. It's a joke to me. Phone Post 3.0

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kevins852 -
Seats Taken - One of my coaches is a judo black belt. He's also a pro fighter but hasn't fought in a few years. All his wins were throws straight to subs, only loss was when he found someone that could control distance well.

He uses a lot of trips and throws that wrestlers haven't seen, so it catches them off guard. Also Judo guys are awesome at hitting the submission right off of the throw.... I've only been doing Judo for a little bit (decent wrestler, purple belt, 2-1 MMA) and if you aren't PERFECT when you hit a judo throw, shits going to go bad. Unlike a double leg where you can just blast it.

Judo techniques being outside of wrestling technique is exactly what im talking about, if your opponent is clearly the better wrestler youre gonna need something outside the box, which i think judo is the answer. A trip/throw technique maybe even sutemi which wrestlers are just not used to.

I dont know why people think its THAT hard to put down 1 or 2 judo techniques in the pocket, I mean you do need to practice them every fucking day along with your MMA/BJJ training but i dont think you need a judo bb to do it, Look at the video I posted above or checkout Machida they cross trained with BJJ, worked pretty good on their takedown defense. Techniques are fairly risky, you can get your back taken if done wrong, way less exposed to hits then a double leg though.

why people keep arguing here about high level judokas in MMA I have no idea. Just saying judo techniques might be the go to for fighters haunted by wrestling, ex. McGregor

I see what you're saying now.
At its core; having a skillset your opponent isn't familiar with always brings and advantage.

It's why everyone hates an unorthodox fighter.

VU. Phone Post 3.0

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Failure, time to tap out of this thread.

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Judo takes more of a transition but it can be done. MMA has a lot of upright clinching and that is where judo excels. If done properly judo guys are very dangerous in the clinch. Ever watch Dong Hyun Kim fight? Dude is a takedown machine. His last fight his opponent got in the clinch with him and Florian said "I wouldn't do that to a guy that has been in the clinch his entire life". Not 2 seconds later he slammed the guy with a harai goshi.

In Pride, 2 time NCAA champ Kevin Randleman fought judoka Nakamura. They got in the clinch against the ropes and Mark Coleman was screaming at Randleman to disengage the clinch. You hear "I wouldn't be there Kevin" and next thing you know Randlman goes flying to the ground being taken down by Nakamura. Phone Post 3.0

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Fedor was vicious with clinch takedowns. Akiyama has some of the most beautiful takedowns in MMA ever. Hector Lombard put a judo clinic on All-American wrestler Jake Shields.

Wrestling is an easier transition to MMA but judo can translate to MMA very well with the proper adjustments. Phone Post 3.0

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Wasa-B - Failure, time to tap out of this thread.
I am, some of you are grasping at straws. Phone Post 3.0

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Why does this have to digress into a "judo vs wrestling" thread? You simpletons not get that they are both extremely useful and practical in MMA and that both art forms are totally bad ass!

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Watching hector Lombard against jake really changed my mind on judo, I was super impressed with what he did to a guy as dominant as jake, made me wanna go sign up for judo.

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My aunt was a national judo champion.
My mom beat the shit out of her utilizing reach and awkward angles. And her shoe.

I remember watching my aunt trying to rush my mom, head down and just getting lit up. My mom kicked her hard as fuck in the gut, took her shoe off and started beating her until my sister pulled her off.

The only other time I saw my mom beat someone up was when this black lady called me and my brother crackas after fighting with her sons. Momma hit her with a Jeremy Stephens uppercut and yes, took her shoe off and best that bitches ass until my uncle pulled her off. Mother use to have a bad temper apparently.

I think what I'm trying to say is that my mom is judo/black lady kryptonite Phone Post 3.0