Wasa-B -Newaza freak - Well, Kyokushin ..I believe also has the same type of mixture but the focus or intent is not soley based on timming plus speed for maximin result like it is in shotokan.
I think that's the whole essence of shotokan.<br /> Right, where i think you can see the whole ishigeki or setting up a big punch Machida where as Kyokushin is more continuous fighting and fighting in closer range right?<br /> <br /> Do you recall when GSP said his td success in MMA comes from his karate/kyokushin days? I think this threw a lot of people off but i thought GSP was maybe saying that he times strikes to set up distance closing? But then i thought that would be more likely in theory mechanically from a more Shotokan like where they are fighting further apart then work to close those distances on those big lunging attacks. With Kyokushin, when they are fighting "in the pocket" so often, not sure how GSP developed that....</blockquote>
GSP started kyokushin at a young age. One minor sparring variation sometimes done in kyokushin (especially for kids and beginners, although there are some more advanced who thinks it is a good exercise too. I do not) is called "Clicker". It is basically the same as shotokan sparring but you do not stop after every hit, and you can get multiple points with multiple hits.
The name clicker comes from the judge holding a counter in each hand, one for each fighter, and he "clicks" them every time a point is scored. The fighter with the most click on his counter at the end wins.
There are no lowkick, no knees, no contact, no elbows (headpunches are sometimes allowed). The distace is much longer than kyokushin knockdown, and they do NOT fight in the pocket.
Movement patter is very similar to point karate (which it basically is), with the difference that fighters do not expect a stoppage after one hit, but tries to get away to avoid being hit again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykt473uc2YM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIUETOR9zuU
I have no proof that this is the first type of kyokushin karate sparring GSP learned, but since Canada is one of the places where it is common, the chances are good.
For later. 
Kolsyrade -Wasa-B -Newaza freak - Well, Kyokushin ..I believe also has the same type of mixture but the focus or intent is not soley based on timming plus speed for maximin result like it is in shotokan.
I think that's the whole essence of shotokan.<br /> Right, where i think you can see the whole ishigeki or setting up a big punch Machida where as Kyokushin is more continuous fighting and fighting in closer range right?<br /> <br /> Do you recall when GSP said his td success in MMA comes from his karate/kyokushin days? I think this threw a lot of people off but i thought GSP was maybe saying that he times strikes to set up distance closing? But then i thought that would be more likely in theory mechanically from a more Shotokan like where they are fighting further apart then work to close those distances on those big lunging attacks. With Kyokushin, when they are fighting "in the pocket" so often, not sure how GSP developed that....</blockquote>
GSP started kyokushin at a young age. One minor sparring variation sometimes done in kyokushin (especially for kids and beginners, although there are some more advanced who thinks it is a good exercise too. I do not) is called "Clicker". It is basically the same as shotokan sparring but you do not stop after every hit, and you can get multiple points with multiple hits.
The name clicker comes from the judge holding a counter in each hand, one for each fighter, and he "clicks" them every time a point is scored. The fighter with the most click on his counter at the end wins.
There are no lowkick, no knees, no contact, no elbows (headpunches are sometimes allowed). The distace is much longer than kyokushin knockdown, and they do NOT fight in the pocket.
Movement patter is very similar to point karate (which it basically is), with the difference that fighters do not expect a stoppage after one hit, but tries to get away to avoid being hit again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykt473uc2YM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIUETOR9zuU
I have no proof that this is the first type of kyokushin karate sparring GSP learned, but since Canada is one of the places where it is common, the chances are good.
Thanks dude, that makes sense if that was the case witH GSP. I think what separates GSP with others in terms of tds is his timing. Sure he has great explosive penetration (beep) on his shots but his timing of when to go is next to none. I thinking he had to have developed that feeling around striking with his karate obviously where as wrestlers come form the other end: they develop everything about tds except how to do them against striking from a far and upright stance.
Btw, NF and Kolsyrade, i posed the question to Jack but never seem to get any responses from him. Can you guys think of any non-Kyokushin or offshoot karate guys that have succeeded in either MMA or Kickboxing?
I noted that Wonder Boy may be one other though he still could be considerate a moderate success guy vs an elite guy like Machida or the other Kyokushin, etc guys in KB.
Wasa-b
That's funny ..I thought the exact same thing when I first heard GSP say that.
Shotokan seems like a more explosive art to be able to cover farther distance than Kyokushin.
VUs NF and Kolsy. Always great discussion with you guys.
Wasa-B - Btw, NF and Kolsyrade, i posed the question to Jack but never seem to get any responses from him. Can you guys think of any non-Kyokushin or offshoot karate guys that have succeeded in either MMA or Kickboxing?
I noted that Wonder Boy may be one other though he still could be considerate a moderate success guy vs an elite guy like Machida or the other Kyokushin, etc guys in KB.
I know of no non- knockdown (kyokushin etc) or glove karate (karate wearing boxing gloves) fighter who has had big success in kickboxing. But then, I have enough to do trying to keep track of the ones that do come from knockdown/glove karate backgrounds.
There are a few guys that I cannot remember the name off.
In MMA I reccomend a google for "30 successful Karate fighters in MMA" for a thread on... another forum. The list started with 30 fighters but ended up at 123 (some of them kyokushin etc guys). Then the original poster was banned and additional suggestions posted in the thread could not be edited into the list that spanned the first few posts.
The list focus on high graded karate guys (not people who trained a few months as a kid). In some cases they con tinued to other standup arts (everyone needed to do grappling), in other cases they went from karate directly to MMA.
in for later
Terrific article, thank you!
NF, that black guy reminds me, lol, isnt Uriah Hall a karate guy? Though not sure if Tiger Schulman is considered a "tradtional" karate guy?
Newaza freak - http://youtu.be/HSrY8JKrp3g
Holy shit, lol at that guy just standing there after landing that spin kick. Movie shit. According to his wiki, he started in kungfu then to karate...
I guess with someone like Cung, may be semantics if his lineage is traditional or not but since he competed full contact, he's more of a kickboxer/full contact "karate" guy than traditional like Shotokan.
Also, guys like Pettis and Anderson may have developed into MMA "kickboxers" or MMA strikers but i think their TKD elements are also evident. Btw, did anyone catch that Machida kick where you go down your hand?
Wasa-B - NF, that black guy reminds me, lol, isnt Uriah Hall a karate guy? Though not sure if Tiger Schulman is considered a "tradtional" karate guy?
Tiger Schulman karate is a kyokushin offshot.
Kolsyrade -Wasa-B - NF, that black guy reminds me, lol, isnt Uriah Hall a karate guy? Though not sure if Tiger Schulman is considered a "tradtional" karate guy?
Tiger Schulman karate is a kyokushin offshot.
Ah, once again, thanks.
Jack Slack -
Hey guys,
People seem to like it when I write about traditional martial arts, and Machida always gives me the chance to do that! Pulled out the scanner and lots of old books for this one :)
Hope you don't mind clicking the link and as always all feedback is welcomed!
Cheers,
Jack
I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida's karate over the past two years, but today I thought we would try something different.
I usually speak at length about Machida's striking style, which is very much influenced by tournament karate, and indeed Japanese karate. Shotokan is, after all, considered a Japanese style of karate rather than an Okinawan one.
In karate tournaments, oven gloves must be worn on all striking surfaces.
The differences are many but among the most obvious are that Japanese styles (Wado-Ryu, Shotokan, Kyokushin and it's variants) tend to focus more on repping out basic techniques and practising kata (forms) into infinity. They use longer stances and tend to be more about pure striking than self defence. This is for the simple reason that when Gichin Funakoshi (the founder of Shotokan) went to mainland Japan from Okinawa, he found himself teaching high ranking judoka at the request of Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo).
Not wanting to teach simple throws and grapples to guys who had spent years turning that into an art form, and having to teach in the regimented environment that the Japanese love, Funakoshi's karate became less Okinawan and more like it is today. Looking at Shotokan next to more traditional Okinawan styles such as Goju-ryu and Uechi-Ryu, they are starkly contrasted.
The truth of it is that real karate, as in the original applications (orbunkai) of the forms, is not going to win you many tournaments. Karate developed from the citizens of a disarmed Japanese colony's need to defend themselves from attackers in self defence scenarios, not the need to fight off samurai or other trained martial artists.
Old school karate, the kind found in decent applications of kata, is pretty much all about grabbing at the crotch, headbutting, and breaking free of grabs or defending basic, street attacker style swings.
That said, Machida himself has shown some slick little techniques which hark right back to the old days of rough and tumble karate. I am a firm believer that many (though not all) old, traditional techniques which look ridiculous can be reconfigured and given an appropriate set up to make them effective. Hell, the Showtime kick should have made us all a little more open minded, that was straight out of a kung fu movie. Today we'll look at one ugly, simple, wooden, old school karate technique which Machida has demonstrated successfully in the octagon.
The Wedge Throw
This technique is sometimes referred to as sukui-nage, which means scooping throw, but there are already two throws in judo which are known as sukui-nage... so let's not confuse things further. For now I'm just going to call it the wedge throw.
Before we go on, I know some of you are curious so here are the two sukui nage from judo.
The first is the traditional version.
The second is the one which proved more practical.
Now onto the throw that I'm talking about. It's different from those two, but more akin to the first.
The idea of stepping behind the opponent's lead leg so that the inner thigh is high on his out thigh, then dumping him over that leg, is an old, old, incredibly old school move. Pretty much any time you see a downward block (gedan-barai / gedan uke) in a karate kata, it can be applied as scooping the opponent over that lead leg. Indeed this is much of what Gichin Funakoshi taught himself.
Here it is demonstrated in the eccentric Shigeru Egami's book, The Heart of Karate Do as an application of a basic downward block. Egami was one of Funakoshi's original students but became gradually more eccentric after Funakoshi's passing.
The Heart of Karate-do, Shigeru Egami
Now of course, in a fist fight in the pub or down a dark alley, the opportunities to dump someone over your lead leg are going to be more forthcoming than against a professional fighter in his well practised stance. Heck, plenty of altercations at the bar see one or both men trip over themselves while throwing punches anyway.
So here is how the Japan Karate Association thought this technique could be best applied against an opponent in a stance, during a kumite match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
Yep, that is the legendary Keinosuke Enoeda, and no there isn't much tact to it. You dive in deep, and they fall over or they don't. Most of the time they didn't. Watching back any old kumite match it's the usual skittish trading of reverse punches and running. Not much of this being applied at all.
Here's Seiji Nishimura, a living karate manual and coach of the Japanese team, demonstrating a much more sensible application of the same technique, in counter to an opponent's attack. And not some BS stepping punch either, the kind of jab you might see in competition or in any combat sport. Even then, however, you would be hard pushed to find examples of it in high level karate competition.
Even Mas Oyama, known for founding a style of karate which was all about striking and not so much about old school self defence techniques, became enamoured with techniques like this in his later life. In Advanced Karate (an incredibly hard book to find in English and one which I am very luck to own), Oyama demonstrates dozens of variations of this simple step behind and bail them over type throw.
Here's one over the arm, as in traditional applications.
Continues at: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1960174-lyoto-machida-old-school-karate
you, my good sir, have reverse punched yourself one vote up!
Wasa-B -Kolsyrade -Wasa-B - NF, that black guy reminds me, lol, isnt Uriah Hall a karate guy? Though not sure if Tiger Schulman is considered a "tradtional" karate guy?<br /> <p> Tiger Schulman karate is a kyokushin offshot.</p> </blockquote> <br /> Ah, once again, thanks.</blockquote>
Maybe I should have said that Tiger schulman karate is a watered down kyokushin offshot. I do not really know how much of Kyokushin there are left in it.
Schulman was a good knockdown fighter in his tournament years before founding his own style, but before they branched out into kickboxing and MMA, Tiger schulman karate had a reputation as very watered down McDojo.
Michael "venom"Page is a open tournament karate fighter from Europe.
He's been scheduled to fight in Bellator once again but has been injured.
TtT
"oven gloves must be worn" 