i think me just a fat guy,needs more room to work,the higher i get the less room i have
wu i was going to mention the legs coming up getting under the armpits when underthe highmount and trans out to get the footlock,but i didnt think anyone still held highmount in the vertical position .
so u need to stay low,and thats a tough place to work from
I love mount. i'm 160 lbs and a brown.
it just clicked at some point.
knees up high, feet squeezing in, big toes pointed at eachother, keep your posture.
keep at 'er, there's gold in them thar hills!
12 - wu i was going to mention the legs coming up getting under the armpits when underthe highmount and trans out to get the footlock,but i didnt think anyone still held highmount in the vertical position .
so u need to stay low,and thats a tough place to work from
Agreed.
I think beginners, in general, tend to stay high in mount so they have the space to work. Staying low while in high mount working chokes difficult because then elbows coming up really crowds the area. I usually only enter into the high mount when I'm looking to finish an armbar or headed over to the arm triangle.
I also very much agree with omoplautistic. It just clicks at some point. I think when you start learning when to attack and when to base, it suddenly applies to all your top positions. I'm probably missing something here but I remember it the same way.
In my game, mount is for triangles and taking the back.
Wutang - .... The single leg grapevine, imo, should only be used when you're reacting to the hipbump not when they aren't doing anything. When you use grapevine and you're short(like me) it's difficult to finish a choke, plus you're stuck in one position without the ability to move into high mount. ...
I don't know why you think that about 1 leg grapevine? I rushed this last night and only showed having the arm captured when I didn't mean to for most of the vid, but you get the idea of the position I'm showing. You wouldn't do this unless you got hip bumped into it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_1gs9Er84&feature=g-upl&context=G2cdfc79AUAAAAAAABAA
My comment about being stuck in that one position was towards a two legged grapevine. :)
Personally, I wouldn't. Mostly because part of my game is to wear down my opponent. I let my opponent start the bump, than I hit that one legged grapevine and it burns their energy. I also grapevine the side I have my crossface.
The grapevine we were practicing was with one leg, the other leg, well more the knee, was up high close to the armpit. I am always going for the back when I mount. The bow and arrow is my go to sub from that transition. Im going to try some of the things mentioned here this week In class to maintain and finish from mount.
The truth is all roads lead to the S-mount
mount.. attack the neck.. he lifts the arm to defend.. start taking space to high mount until your in s-mount.. armbar/cross choke.
Works at all levels.
I have another choke (some refer to it as a shoalin choke) I use if the guy is to strong for me to get at his neck that involves me dismounting. I generally only use it to get the guy to lift his arm and expose his neck though.
4u
if aint comfortable ,its wrestling
I think in all honesty, in Jiu Jitsu side control is truly the more dominant position. There are more submissions and also it is a tougher position to escape. In a fight, mount gives better ability for strikes but even here side control gives easier access to knee on belly which is really good for strikes. 
Dempster - I think in all honesty, in Jiu Jitsu side control is truly the more dominant position. There are more submissions and also it is a tougher position to escape. In a fight, mount gives better ability for strikes but even here side control gives easier access to knee on belly which is really good for strikes. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
Only at this level in my bjj.. I agree that this is the case for me right now. However mount is always getting closer to effectiveness as I get more experience. And when you look at the most elite guys like Roger. Mount is a dead end road for opponents. It's not about the number of submissions. I just try to remember that I have a long way to go and I might not think this down the road.
Brown belt training over 11 years here. Personally what worked for me is recognizing patience and becoming very good at just keeping mount itself. To gain mount itself is theoretically the hardest position to gain in jiujitsu. Thats why its given 4 pts right? Something i emphasize to new people is you've worked so hard to get there so once you finally get it, why rush it? its a dominant position for a reason and before fully attempting any submission or something dramatic you should have the patience to ensure that your success rate is very high. why go through all the work to just lose position on a poorly executed armbar or un-timed roll escape by your opponent? patience and the ability to keep mount(using great methods mentioned by others here) will dramatically boost your ability to finish from mount. the combination of the threat of submission and the psychology of defeat your opponent feels every time he fails to upa or elbow escape makes a dangerous and efficient combination.
FIRST POST OVER
Also recognizing the connection between mount and back mount is very crucial too. There's nothing wrong with giving up mount as long as you maintain the control and pressure that goes with it through the transition. "Flow with the go" If your opponent is dead set on giving up his back to you because of poor technique or gameplan then give him what he wants and take his back, but maintain that control and pressure. If your opponent's mount escape can be contained with minimum effort and maximum efficiency then keep mount. either way maintain that control and pressure. Ideally the goal is to "encourage" your opponent's movements/reactions but not force them.
Sorry to come late to the party!
There are two answers to this question:
1) The Zen Answer: "EVERYPLACE in BJJ is a transition."
This is true, but it doesn't sound like it's really your question today. Let's go to door number 2.
2) The Mount is a perfectly good way to hold someone down and immobilize them.
Let's talk about holding Mount for a moment. It's my favorite top position. Now, I'm not a big dude, but when I roll with the crazy athletes, or the spazzes, or just people who are really good, this is where I go to tire them out. I once had my strongest, freakiest, athlete book a 60-minute private lesson, and all he wanted was to roll with me and feel my A-game. After playing a few positions, I went to Mount and held it for 40 minutes. (Before you think I'm taking advantage, you have to meet him. He called it the "best private lesson EVER.") This is a guy who does turkish get-ups with the 108lb kettlebell...for reps. He's insanely strong off his back.
I say all that to say this: It's hold-able. You can choose to stay in the Mount, if you take the time to develop the position. Here are some things you'll want to develop, in order to keep the Mount:
1) Understand that not all Mount positions have the same strengths & weaknesses.
Even without discussing S-Mount or the back, we can stay in the realm of (front) Mount and discuss variations. When you take a HIGH mount position, your priorities are different than when you take a LOW mount position. There are different things to monitor in each of these. Why? Here's why:
2) There are two primary roads out of the Mount: Upa (bridge & roll), and Elbow/Knee (recover guard).
Here's a simple way of looking at the Mount -- in order to stay Mounted, all you have to do is stop your partner's Mount Escapes. That may sound overly simple, but it's actually a shift in paradigm. Rather than focusing on "oh man, I have to accomplish like 8 separate things in order to stay here", you can instead focus on "OK, he's going for Elbow Knee. I have shut down Elbow Knee. Now he'll probably go for Upa...yep, here it is. OK, I have shut down his Upa. Now I'll watch for Elbow Knee again...". Though this takes a higher awareness level (in order to monitor his techniques), it's an easier way to play. Also, you'll need to know a few counters to each of the primary Mount Escapes.
3) So how do I shut down his Mount Escapes?
Well, there are quite a few ways to stop each one. Let's talk in broad brush strokes for a moment, to bring it back to point #1:
- When you take a HIGH mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be rolled over (Upa). Because you are so far above his waistline, it's much more difficult for him to place you into his guard.
- When you take a LOW mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be placed in the guard (E/K). Because you have a low, wide base with your knees, it's much more difficult for him to roll you.
So in order to hold the mount, I need to position myself appropriately based on which escapes he is attempting (or I need to choose one of these positions and monitor carefully for the need to counter the most likely escape). What else?
4) Take (at least) one of his arms away.
The rule I learned from Roy Harris is: if you're going to hold the Mount for a length of time, you need one of his biceps pressed against his ear. Both would be better.
Most people over-rely on their arms, especially when escaping. If you can take one of his arms out of play by gluing it to the side of his head, you can significantly reduce his effectiveness at escaping. If you can take both out of play, you're in good shape to attack with just about any submission you want.
There are many, many ways to get the arms up into this position. In fact, I learned several of them at a Roy Harris seminar years ago, where we spent FOUR HOURS going over them. And there were plenty we didn't do!
(For the really curious, I'll skip to the secret ending: the BEST way to do it is to put the arm there BEFORE you Mount. It's much easier to establish solid Mount control if he's already missing his arm. In fact, on people with skill, I won't Mount unless I see his bicep kiss his ear first!)
5) Pressure. If you're going to hold down someone with serious experience, you also need to apply pressure.
Which pressure? On what? Using what part of my body? At what angle? How much?
There are many appropriate pressures that can accompany your Mount hold down. The short answer is "whichever ones create a specific reaction that blocks his ability to use an escape". For anyone keeping track, this might be how I shut down the other escape when I choose High or Low Mount ;)
Well, there's your 5-step primer on holding the Mount. Developing solid Mount control is frustrating in the beginning, because other students will roll you over again and again, but believe me when I say that it's entirely worth it! Solid Mount skills are a devastating tool to keep in your back pocket. You'll be glad you have them in times of need!
Good training to you,
~Chris
glad you could make it
12 - glad you could make it
LOL thanks :)
TheBearStare - Brown belt training over 11 years here. Personally what worked for me is recognizing patience and becoming very good at just keeping mount itself. To gain mount itself is theoretically the hardest position to gain in jiujitsu. Thats why its given 4 pts right? Something i emphasize to new people is you've worked so hard to get there so once you finally get it, why rush it? its a dominant position for a reason and before fully attempting any submission or something dramatic you should have the patience to ensure that your success rate is very high. why go through all the work to just lose position on a poorly executed armbar or un-timed roll escape by your opponent? patience and the ability to keep mount(using great methods mentioned by others here) will dramatically boost your ability to finish from mount. the combination of the threat of submission and the psychology of defeat your opponent feels every time he fails to upa or elbow escape makes a dangerous and efficient combination.welcome to the party
FIRST POST OVER
twinkletoesCT - Sorry to come late to the party!
There are two answers to this question:
<b>1) The Zen Answer: "EVERYPLACE in BJJ is a transition." </b>
This is true, but it doesn't sound like it's really your question today. Let's go to door number 2.
<b>2) The Mount is a perfectly good way to hold someone down and immobilize them.</b>
Let's talk about holding Mount for a moment. It's my favorite top position. Now, I'm not a big dude, but when I roll with the crazy athletes, or the spazzes, or just people who are really good, this is where I go to tire them out. I once had my strongest, freakiest, athlete book a 60-minute private lesson, and all he wanted was to roll with me and feel my A-game. After playing a few positions, I went to Mount and held it for 40 minutes. (Before you think I'm taking advantage, you have to meet him. He called it the "best private lesson EVER.") This is a guy who does turkish get-ups with the 108lb kettlebell...for reps. He's insanely strong off his back.
I say all that to say this: It's hold-able. You can choose to stay in the Mount, if you take the time to develop the position. Here are some things you'll want to develop, in order to keep the Mount:
<b>1) Understand that not all Mount positions have the same strengths & weaknesses. </b>
Even without discussing S-Mount or the back, we can stay in the realm of (front) Mount and discuss variations. When you take a HIGH mount position, your priorities are different than when you take a LOW mount position. There are different things to monitor in each of these. Why? Here's why:
<b>2) There are two primary roads out of the Mount: Upa (bridge & roll), and Elbow/Knee (recover guard). </b>
Here's a simple way of looking at the Mount -- in order to stay Mounted, all you have to do is stop your partner's Mount Escapes. That may sound overly simple, but it's actually a shift in paradigm. Rather than focusing on "oh man, I have to accomplish like 8 separate things in order to stay here", you can instead focus on "OK, he's going for Elbow Knee. I have shut down Elbow Knee. Now he'll probably go for Upa...yep, here it is. OK, I have shut down his Upa. Now I'll watch for Elbow Knee again...". Though this takes a higher awareness level (in order to monitor his techniques), it's an easier way to play. Also, you'll need to know a few counters to each of the primary Mount Escapes.
<b>3) So how do I shut down his Mount Escapes?</b>
Well, there are quite a few ways to stop each one. Let's talk in broad brush strokes for a moment, to bring it back to point #1:<ul> <li> When you take a HIGH mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be rolled over (Upa). Because you are so far above his waistline, it's much more difficult for him to place you into his guard.</li> <li>When you take a LOW mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be placed in the guard (E/K). Because you have a low, wide base with your knees, it's much more difficult for him to roll you. </li></ul>So in order to hold the mount, I need to position myself appropriately based on which escapes he is attempting (or I need to choose one of these positions and monitor carefully for the need to counter the most likely escape). What else?<br type="_moz" />
<b>4) Take (at least) one of his arms away.</b>
The rule I learned from Roy Harris is: if you're going to hold the Mount for a length of time, you need one of his biceps pressed against his ear. Both would be better.
Most people over-rely on their arms, especially when escaping. If you can take one of his arms out of play by gluing it to the side of his head, you can significantly reduce his effectiveness at escaping. If you can take both out of play, you're in good shape to attack with just about any submission you want.
There are many, many ways to get the arms up into this position. In fact, I learned several of them at a Roy Harris seminar years ago, where we spent FOUR HOURS going over them. And there were plenty we didn't do!
(For the really curious, I'll skip to the secret ending: the BEST way to do it is to put the arm there BEFORE you Mount. It's much easier to establish solid Mount control if he's already missing his arm. In fact, on people with skill, I won't Mount unless I see his bicep kiss his ear first!)
<b>5) Pressure. If you're going to hold down someone with serious experience, you also need to apply pressure.</b>
Which pressure? On what? Using what part of my body? At what angle? How much?
There are many appropriate pressures that can accompany your Mount hold down. The short answer is "whichever ones create a specific reaction that blocks his ability to use an escape". For anyone keeping track, this might be how I shut down the other escape when I choose High or Low Mount ;)
Well, there's your 5-step primer on holding the Mount. Developing solid Mount control is frustrating in the beginning, because other students will roll you over again and again, but believe me when I say that it's entirely worth it! Solid Mount skills are a devastating tool to keep in your back pocket. You'll be glad you have them in times of need!
Good training to you,
~Chris
<br type="_moz" />
Holy F-in FRAT...Some things I agree. Some I don't...
"When you take a HIGH mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be rolled over (Upa). Because you are so far above his waistline, it's much more difficult for him to place you into his guard.
When you take a LOW mount position, it's much more likely that you'll be placed in the guard (E/K). Because you have a low, wide base with your knees, it's much more difficult for him to roll you. "
When you are in high mount, his hip bumps no longer have effect. You are also too high up for him to get a lapel grip and have an angle to control your posture.
When you are in low mount. your toes should be curled under his butt and your knees pinched to his sides. You should not be any wider. If he can get an elbow on the inside of your knee he will be able to drive it down and out to create space.
The risk of high mount is that you don't have as much control over his hips. From bottom I will get a sleeve grip, then lift my hips and get a foot under the armpit. Drive them away and even get an ankle lock.
Good point about starting mount with the arm near his ear though.. Not enough guys use their hips in side control to drive the elbow above the shoulder before switching to mount..The result is that they usually don't even make it to mount and get put in 1/2 guard.