"CS compared MMA to other adult-only activities"
MMA is not an adult only activity and why would it ever be compared to getting married? It's a sport...Porn, Marriage, Voting, Drugs, Torture, etc etc ARE NOT SPORTS...To compare MMA to any of those things is ridiculous.
"But the fact remains that public perception of MMA is much less enlightened than this view, and many parents agree with CS that MMA's violent nature makes it unwise to expose to children. That's not hating on MMA, it's making a parental judgment."
One based on ignorance..Like I was saying.
Diego... you obviously dont read very well...
a few posts earlier i noted that lots of the top judo players in the USA had very successful wrestling careers as well. in the USA, the judokas are far, far more well versed in the basics of wrestling than the judokas in japan.
lets also note that in the world of wrestling you can get "taken down" for landing on your stomach/all=4's whereas in judo those things are worthless. thus, when judokas who are not versed in wrestling give it a go, there is a learning curve that goes along with it.. just as there would be with a wrestler coming to learn how to use a gi.
beyond that... qualifying for th US Olympic Trials in wrestling means you medaled at a regional event. now, this is not an easy task by any means, but it does mean that +/- 20 people qualify for the trials per weight. for an athlete who has trained for it, has the talent and has the skills in throwing, the odds are not horrible on getting into the trials.
JoshuaResnick - Diego... you obviously dont read very well...
a few posts earlier i noted that lots of the top judo players in the USA had very successful wrestling careers as well. in the USA, the judokas are far, far more well versed in the basics of wrestling than the judokas in japan.
lets also note that in the world of wrestling you can get "taken down" for landing on your stomach/all=4's whereas in judo those things are worthless. thus, when judokas who are not versed in wrestling give it a go, there is a learning curve that goes along with it.. just as there would be with a wrestler coming to learn how to use a gi.
beyond that... qualifying for th US Olympic Trials in wrestling means you medaled at a regional event. now, this is not an easy task by any means, but it does mean that +/- 20 people qualify for the trials per weight. for an athlete who has trained for it, has the talent and has the skills in throwing, the odds are not horrible on getting into the trials.
Josh, while I would agree with you that American judo players are, on average, more familiar with the basics of wrestling than the Japanese players I have trained with, don't you think that you're being a bit overly optimistic of a US Judo player having a shot to make the US Wrestling team?
After all, we are talking about a person coming from a sport where, bluntly, the US has not exactly excelled, and them going out for a sport where the US is one of the pre-eminent powers in the world. I would think that would end up being a lot of "big fish, small pond learning that they were a guppy" scenarios.
I would think it would be a lot easier in a country like Japan for one of their top level judo players to go into wrestling and make the national team, since at the higher weights the Japanese men's wrestling hasn't been stellar.
Now, the women on the other hand for Japan, in both judo and wrestling, are just badass. That would be a fun thing to watch.
CS...
while i agree completely with you in the conversation with TJ (sorry, TJ, but i think you are full of crap on this and are standing on some ice that's breaking) i think you misread my posts as well..
i am not speaking about them MAKING the US Team.. I am speaking about the odds that SOME of the men in US Judo would have in terms of making it to the OLYMPIC TRIALS in wrestling.
do you really think that guys who were NCAA All-Americans, or guys who turned down D-1 scholarships in wrestling, or whom won their state wrestling tournaments (sometimes a few times in a row) to focus on judo, are somehow less talented of an athlete, or that their skill sets in wresting and judo would not serve them well if that was the path they were to have taken?
case in point.. there were at least 3 guys at this past Olympic Trials who had extensive judo backgrounds in the Olympic Trials for wrestling.
obviously, wrestling and judo chase after the exact same talent pool. from time to time, even though judo is smaller, has less recognition and money in the USA, there will still be athletes who choose to continue with Judo instead of wrestling. Had those same athletes made the choice to go with wrestling instead, would it be that unlikely that they would have a decent chance at making it to the US Olympic Trials????
Is it difficult for you to think that a guy who took 2nd in the NJ state wrestling tournament in HS, then spent his adulthood focused on Judo and became tops in the world would not have been able to have qualified for the Olympic Trials in wresting had he made the choice to focus on freestyle instead of Judo?
Or how about the kid who was ranked 19th in the NCAA as a freshmen and then left his D-1 scholarship behind to focus on Judo only to nearly break his neck? Do you not think he might have had the talent to qualify for the Olympic Trials in wrestling someday in his life?
There are many, many more instances where I think it is blindingly obvious that there are athletes within USA Judo who have the talent and skill level to accomplish the task of qualifying for the US Olympic Trials in wrestling IF they were to make that decision and train accordingly.
That is what I am saying. nothing more, nothing less.
well, and that I think Q is completely off-base with his assessment of what parts of reality are okay for a kid to be exposed to...
I'd never in my life let my kids watch an MMA fight, they have no ability to see the difference between that and a street brawl no matter how much I explain it to them. It would desensitize them to inappropriate violence and potentially lead them to a confused state of what is and is not okay in terms of the purpose of any martial art in today's society. MMA is not about self-defense. it is an ADULT decision to enter a FIGHT with another adult and intentionally cause him as much physical harm as one can legally do.
I am a special education teacher who deals in specific with high-school kids with Emotional-Behavioral issues, and there are literally thousands of psychological studies done by extremely reputable child therapists, psychologists, and neurologists that clearly prove not only what i stated above, but also show that exposure to such confusing, condoned violence literally alters the neurological pathways a child's brain will form and forever changes the manner in which things like sympathy, empathy, compassion, and the desire to not see unwarranted pain in others are viewed by that someday adult.
JoshuaResnick - CS...
while i agree completely with you in the conversation with TJ (sorry, TJ, but i think you are full of crap on this and are standing on some ice that's breaking) i think you misread my posts as well..
i am not speaking about them MAKING the US Team.. I am speaking about the odds that SOME of the men in US Judo would have in terms of making it to the OLYMPIC TRIALS in wrestling.
do you really think that guys who were NCAA All-Americans, or guys who turned down D-1 scholarships in wrestling, or whom won their state wrestling tournaments (sometimes a few times in a row) to focus on judo, are somehow less talented of an athlete, or that their skill sets in wresting and judo would not serve them well if that was the path they were to have taken?
case in point.. there were at least 3 guys at this past Olympic Trials who had extensive judo backgrounds in the Olympic Trials for wrestling.
obviously, wrestling and judo chase after the exact same talent pool. from time to time, even though judo is smaller, has less recognition and money in the USA, there will still be athletes who choose to continue with Judo instead of wrestling. Had those same athletes made the choice to go with wrestling instead, would it be that unlikely that they would have a decent chance at making it to the US Olympic Trials????
Is it difficult for you to think that a guy who took 2nd in the NJ state wrestling tournament in HS, then spent his adulthood focused on Judo and became tops in the world would not have been able to have qualified for the Olympic Trials in wresting had he made the choice to focus on freestyle instead of Judo?
Or how about the kid who was ranked 19th in the NCAA as a freshmen and then left his D-1 scholarship behind to focus on Judo only to nearly break his neck? Do you not think he might have had the talent to qualify for the Olympic Trials in wrestling someday in his life?
There are many, many more instances where I think it is blindingly obvious that there are athletes within USA Judo who have the talent and skill level to accomplish the task of qualifying for the US Olympic Trials in wrestling IF they were to make that decision and train accordingly.
That is what I am saying. nothing more, nothing less.
Josh, I guess my point (and if I am misreading you, I apologize) isn't as much in the athletic talent area (although, there may be some of that), but rather in the skill development area. A player who devoted a large amount of his time for a portion of his life to judo I don't think could "come back" to wrestling in skill level to qualify for the US Nationals. I could be wrong, however.
It's like looking at Brock Lesnar. Great wrestler, great athlete, and current UFC champion. Yet, he got cut from the Vikings when he tried out for the NFL. Why? Not because of his lack of atheltic ability, but because he just didn't have the skill set of an NFL caliber player.
Kinda comes down to the difference between an "athlete" and a "player", in any sport. Sure, athletic ability can overcome all sorts of skill gaps, but at the highest levels of comeptition, everone has a high level of athletic ability. The difference comes oftentimes in skill sets, then.
"I'd never in my life let my kids watch an MMA fight, they have no ability to see the difference between that and a street brawl no matter how much I explain it to them."
Ridiculous! They can't tell the difference between a sport and a street brawl? good thing you are a special ed teacher, sounds like they are gunna need ya....:)
judoblackbelt - The top judo athletes focus on (gi) judo only. The same quesiton has been asked why top judo players don't do BJJ. The sport of judo on an international level is at such a highly competitive level that you have to focus on inter national competitions, rankings, points and experience. The promotion of Judo in the USA is so difficult with all the competition from BJJ/No-gi (naga)events that we have to stick with what we know. Also, many of the judo sensei's do not believe in mma/no gi as it pertains to judo. It is also true as to why top BJJ world class players/no gi fighters do not compete in world class judo. Competition is too strong and would not fair well. Locally they would do fine.
If they got rid of the gi, the shot would be too easy and take the (clinch game aspect out of it) and sooner or later still become a freestyle match with maybe slightly more throws due to the ippon score.
The great thing is there is a sport for what your passion is. There will never be no gi judo but there is no need for it when you have all the naga tournaments/no gi BJJ. ANd what separates judo as an elite sport is the international competition. Where it is held and practiced in high regard. I have practiced and studied BJJ for over 10 years and actually my ground game is much better than my standup game. So it has been the perfect compliment to my judo like wrestling could be for another. The seperation between them comes at the highest competitive levels.
"I'd never in my life let my kids watch an MMA fight, they have no ability to see the difference between that and a street brawl no matter how much I explain it to them."
New poll on main forum to see how many people agree with your opinion.
thus far, out of 200 people polled..
83% disagree with you
17% agree
I'm shocked 17% on this site agree.
Q... did you state that my kids are 4 years old and 14 months?
and, did you stop to consider if a poll on the UG should in any manner influence the way a man raises his family?
or, did you consider anything having to do with neuroscience and the manner at which a young child's brain maps itself??? nevermind, that would require reading on your part. =)
wait, then again, if the UG disagrees with me, i know im in the right. =)
JoshuaResnick - Q... did you state that my kids are 4 years old and 14 months?
and, did you stop to consider if a poll on the UG should in any manner influence the way a man raises his family?
or, did you consider anything having to do with neuroscience and the manner at which a young child's brain maps itself??? nevermind, that would require reading on your part. =)
wait, then again, if the UG disagrees with me, i know im in the right. =)
Josh makes a good point.
I have absolutely no problem letting my children age 4 and 8 watch MMA and we frequently do. They understand that it is a sporting competition and that the fighters do not hate each other. They are both just trying to win.
My oldest son asks me about techniques and in particular submission and I explain to him the strategies and philosophy of bjj and he likes bjj fighters because they can win fight without punching anyone as he himself is a very gentle guy and about as likey to punch someone in the face as Aoki is to win via superman punch. He knows that I teach and train MMA and he's been around it all his life. That said, he is still a young child and for him kung fu is cooler because they fight like animals and he can use weapons!
"did you state that my kids are 4 years old and 14 months?"
No and niether did you..However, dosnt matter much to me..At 4 my kids knew that peter pan couldnt really fly, I explained it to them so they didnt jump out of windows..Hope you do the same before yours take the flying "ahhhhhh!"....pssssst!!! There is a murder in the lion king!!! (just a heads up)
" did you stop to consider if a poll on the UG should in any manner influence the way a man raises his family?"
Never said it should, just showing that over 80% of the martial artists here disagree with you...
"did you consider anything having to do with neuroscience and the manner at which a young child's brain maps itself??? nevermind, that would require reading on your part. =)"
Josh, save your educated lectures from mount high for the tards, buddy....I have healthy, happy, well adjusted children who watch mma and know the difference between the SPORT of mma and a street brawl. You admittingly, with all of your vast study and diligent readings (I'm picturing endless hours at the library by flashlight because you snuck in before closing) on neuroscience and brain mapping, do not.. Yet I'm lacking? aheeeem!! You got a mirror for a monitor? Madness and genius are literally seperated by a hairline...You are riding the razors edge there Socrates..Slooooow your roll!..You ain't breaking new ground! In fact, you sound like a victim of your own madness.
"wait, then again, if the UG disagrees with me, i know im in the right. =)"
To each his own.
q... the time will come for my kids to watch MMA... right about the time i think porn is okay for them too.
i see MMA and porn as nearly the same level of their two fields. cant help it, i do. i dont blame others who disagree with me, but to sit down with my 4-year old while daddy cheers as a guy gets viciously knocked the f out, or to watch while one man is visibly bleeding what appears in the eyes of a child to be pints of blood out while nobody tires to help him until the round is over isnt something i want to explain to my kids as "sport" until they have the experience with both fictional injury (yes, the lion king) and a clear understanding of martial arts as sport and something more.
my little girl will start judo in August, when she is 5. and no, i wont immediately show her clips of people being choked out, of people getting their arms snapped, or of throws gone horribly awry just because she is wearing a gi.
the problem we have here is that too many people on the UG are far and away too desensitized to what MMA is in the mind's eye view of a child... too many people here think that just because they can "explain" it to their kid and get their kid to give a specific style of reply back that it means their child internalizes things that way...
they dont. flat out, they dont. most kids will tell their parents exactly what they are instructed to tell them because they know 1) that they are suppose to and 2) that doing it makes their mom and dad happy and 3) keeps them out of trouble.
i find it hilarious that so many people here are so conservative on so many things, but then also want to eat their cake by exposing their kids to the most brutal level of the martial arts at such an early age.
your kids have seen you kiss mommy too... why not porn next??? at what point in time is the line drawn?
Lol @ the assertion that the perception of mma is on par with pro wrestling. Contrary, the perception is mma is anathema to pro wrestling in that one is real as real can be and the other is blatantly fake.
Another thing in re: tattoos - take the gi off judoka and you would be amazed at the amount of ink. You have to be a blind man not to notice the tats on basketball, baseball, football players, boxers and wrestlers also.
Judo's popularity internationally should not be equated with its popularity in the states. All viewers of mma matches who have a judo background get off when a judo throw is used and I believe that is the point of this thread when stripped down to it base.
MMA is a great spectator sport whereas in the states judo is obscure unless it is brought up during the course of a mma match. In Japan, the very place of birth of judo, mma matches fill huge outdoor stadiums with spectators to the point where Japan might be the world epicenter.
Boxing is about as primal a sport in the world with the the skull getting traumatized continuously yet isn't the household name "Golden Gloves" congruent with youth boxing and character development?
There is no reason mma cannot be taught under the tenets of judo.
Any judoka that asserts there aren't at least as many assholes involved with judo in the states as there are steady eddies are kidding themselves.
No doubt on your points with the # of ah's in judo Walt. Right now in Judo there is:
1. An Olympian being brought up on charges of raping an underage girl while at the US Open-- incidentally, he is out on bail and started up MMA very recently only to lose his fight badly.
2. About 15 well-known people throughout the USA who have been expelled from Judo by the JI, JF and JA for sexual misconduct, some of whom are also former Olympians.
3. A man serving a federal sentence for having a sexual relationship with his underage athlete while overseas and throughout the USA.
4. In Canada a former national coach was found guilty of sexual misconduct with several of his female athletes.
and the list goes on.... and on..
Judo is not immune. The people in judo are not at all necessarily any better than those in MMA... the main difference being that usually in Judo the person is banned for several years to life for the conduct.
"q... the time will come for my kids to watch MMA... right about the time i think porn is okay for them too."
I quit reading after that statement..You're an idiot sometimes Josh. This is one of those times...If you wrote that with any sincerity at all (and not in an attempt to incite), my god, man...
If it's any consolation..I'm sure I have my moments..