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41

Here is another good one I came across

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17469948/

I love this part

"He had struggled with his weight since he was 11, and said he had tried just about every diet, but nothing worked."

Well if gastric by pass by not letting you eat enough made him lose weight then he obviously didn't try NOT EATING SO DAMN MUCH!!!

"It also requires drastic changes in eating habits, he said."

WOW I had no idea that wanting to not be fat after weighing 385lbs required changes to eating habits

Do i come across as not empathetic

42

I don't take as dim a view of the surgery as Atecexa does, but I don't like how fast it makes people lose the weight--like 100 lbs in 6 months.

I mean, if someone combines a strict south beach diet with ephedra and loses 10 lbs in a month, a good doctor would advise them to slow down, but here we're talking about people going totally nuts and losing weight 30%-80% faster than even THAT. Leaving aside the disgusting hanging skin, it just can't be the greatest thing to do to yourself.

That being said...if the alternative is staying 300+ lbs...then by all means...

Again, I'll add that I hope insurance does NOT pay for this.

43

It probably does... as a procedure that does indeed reduce mortality and morbidity, not only is it right for insurance to pay for it, it saves the insurance company money!

44

"Imagine if you were trying to quit smoking, but you still had to smoke three cigarettes a day to live."

I actually use a very similar example all the time.

If the very act of eating anything is a trigger for you, imagine how difficult it is to overcome.

TAKU

45

It probably does... as a procedure that does indeed reduce mortality and morbidity, not only is it right for insurance to pay for it, it saves the insurance company money!

OK, I'll admit my position likely requires more statistical analysis than I'm willing to do here.

Jon, here's what Atecexa's second URL had on it:

"Total hospital charges also were lower for pediatric patients, $30,804 per patient versus $36,056 for adults."

So I guess it would depend on the age the person is getting it. Not mostly because of the initial cost, but because of the projected savings.

I'm not totally convinced that I'm not being gypped by this.

Morbidly obese people don't necessarily cost insurance co's 30K over and above other people through the course of their lives because, for one thing, they die younger.

Also they're less likely to be engaging in high risk behaviors like rock-climbing, snow-boarding, sky-diving, or having unprotected sex with multiple partners...

Sorry for the thread hijack. :)

46

"OK, I'll admit my position likely requires more statistical analysis than I'm willing to do here."

Eh, mine probably does too.

47

If the very act of eating anything is a trigger for you, imagine how difficult it is to overcome.

Difficult of course but hey after all life is difficult.

"OK, I'll admit my position likely requires more statistical analysis than I'm willing to do here."

Yeah I'd say most of mine do too

48

Atecexa; you said it yourself, your family has good genes for staying thin. It's easy to say that people should just have more willpower but everything is not so easy for every person. You blast some people for searching for magic bullets for their weight loss yet isn't that what you have been doing for a long time in regards to your training? You've come on here for years preaching or asking about the latest training item to come along whether it be obesessing over fad diets and the 'evils' of modern medicine to giving creatine to 7 year olds to recommending eating nothing but sea moss. At the end of the day though it seems like you are searching for an easy fix for your athletic shortfalls in the same way obese people are seeking an easy cure for their lard.
I come from a family of good athletes so I know I've got good genes in that regard. At 13 and 170lbs I benched 190, squated 275 and was running the 100m in 13 seconds which I believe is not too far below your current stats. At 24 I'd improved to benching 350, squating 495 lbs and could do the 100m in 11.7 seconds all without drugs, supplements, lifting aids or even serious training. Athletic gains come easily to my family so does that mean I can just assume that you should be making the same gains in your attempts? Should I laugh or get pissed at people for trying out training programs that I've never needed to use myself?

Kind of apples to oranges but I would say it would be more like me trying to achieve a particular 200m time and after several years and several different programs I'm still nowhere close I resort to HGH and steroids, rahter than continue to train hard and always search for new routines and techniques. Also not being a great athlete or even having potential for athletic greatness is not terminal to one's health. The inability to run a low 20's 200m will never hurt mine or anyone's health, the inability to control your eating definitely will.

49

Atecexa: I think in this discussion, we're kind of going in circles, so let me refocus things by asking you a question:

If the alternative to this surgery were STAYING at 330 + lbs, would you still fault these people for choosing surgery?

I know that it's certainly preferable that these people control their appetites, drink green tea, and live on chef salads made with organic leafy greens, wild salmon, free-range chicken, balsamic vinegar and EVOO, but statistical evidence suggests that an OVERWHELMING majority of morbidly obese people will NOT do this.

Even though I give you a hard time, I like your idealism and commitment to personal discipline, but as I've gotten older, I've found that idealism gets you stuck into thinking about the way the world SHOULD be rather than the way it IS.

So anyway, humor me for a moment and just stipulate to the fact that the 40-year-old guy who's 5'10" and weighs 330 lbs is going to STAY that way or get WORSE and probably die of a heart attack or stroke at age 55, unless he gets this surgery. Would you REALLY fault this guy for doing so? Thanks.

50

If the morbidly obese guy doesn't change his eating habits, how exactly is the surgery going to work long term?

51

FWIW - I paid for my own surgery (and my gastric banding was MUCH cheaper than gastric bypass - less than $10k)

Also, the speed of weight loss is much slower with my procedure

"So anyway, humor me for a moment and just stipulate to the fact that the 40-year-old guy who's 5'10" and weighs 330 lbs is going to STAY that way or get WORSE and probably die of a heart attack or stroke at age 55, unless he gets this surgery. Would you REALLY fault this guy for doing so? Thanks"

Exactly - I have consistently failed, driven myself to some very dark places mentally, continued to add weight. Surgery has turned me around, and given me a chance to rebuild my body and my mind. I appreciate that some people view surgery as 'cheating', but the various ways of advising 'toughen up, lardass' that people suggest is supremely unhelpful, and ultimately counterproductive.

Surgery isn't a 'shortcut'. It is the single most effective treatment (measured by the % of patients who lose a significant amount of weight and keep it off)

52
  • "If the morbidly obese guy doesn't change his eating habits, how exactly is the surgery going to work long term?"

Todd, I can only speculate about the "how" (which would be fruitless, because I bet you could come up with the same speculations), but the statistical evidence suggests that it does have better long-term success than diet and exercise alone.

53

-- If the morbidly obese guy doesn't change his eating habits, how exactly is the surgery going to work long term? --

the change in eating habits follows the surgery by force essentially. they can't eat the way they did before. not physically able to.

also, interesting article for the people who haven't yet figured out that their own limited experience in this world isn't generally applicable to everyone:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2007/03/07/obesity-leads-to-destruction-of-appetite-suppression-system

54

"If the alternative to this surgery were STAYING at 330 + lbs, would you still fault these people for choosing surgery?"

There is always an alternative. You got yourself to 330lbs with ridiculous overeating you can get yourself out of it...you just have to really really want it over and above anything else in the physical realm.

", but statistical evidence suggests that an OVERWHELMING majority of morbidly obese people will NOT do this."

if someone has been shown a solution that will work but may take a little effort and they simply wont do it then screw em...imo

"Even though I give you a hard time, I like your idealism and commitment to personal discipline, but as I've gotten older, I've found that idealism gets you stuck into thinking about the way the world SHOULD be rather than the way it IS."

Similar to raising a child, you spend damn near every parenting moment disciplining and putting on your child ways you want them to be and how you think they should be...not just "how they are"

"So anyway, humor me for a moment and just stipulate to the fact that the 40-year-old guy who's 5'10" and weighs 330 lbs is going to STAY that way or get WORSE and probably die of a heart attack or stroke at age 55, unless he gets this surgery. Would you REALLY fault this guy for doing so? Thanks."

Call me a hardass but I would, because imo you can beat it without drugs and surgery. It was like when we went to several different child psychologists for my kids severe behavior problems...what do you think they all said? Here's a prescription for ritalin, adjust dosage based on behavior. When we asked what they thought of making dietary changes they all pretty much laughed at us and said it won't work and only ritalin/adderall is shown to really work. Well guess what we went through a feingold stage 1 and 2 and while it was a serious inconvenience and bigger food expense it freaking worked and without drugs, it also got me and my wife to eat healthier.

"Exactly - I have consistently failed, driven myself to some very dark places mentally, continued to add weight. Surgery has turned me around, and given me a chance to rebuild my body and my mind. I appreciate that some people view surgery as 'cheating', but the various ways of advising 'toughen up, lardass' that people suggest is supremely unhelpful, and ultimately counterproductive. Surgery isn't a 'shortcut'. It is the single most effective treatment (measured by the % of patients who lose a significant amount of weight and keep it off)"

Failing (at anything) is just a product of not wanting something truly bad enough. If you want something bad enough you can put up with anything until you get it. And yes it is a shortcut to proper diet, controlling your food intake and exercising. Hell I could eat 5000cal a day but if im running 10+ 400m's, doing oly and powerlifitng workouts 3 days a week and swimming a mile a day and doing a bjj workout thrown in, ill eat all 5k and not gain a pound.

55

Failing (at anything) is just a product of not wanting something truly bad enough.

You totally lost me with this one.  Ridiculous.

56

Atecexa, I think we have a minor disconnect.

What I'm asking you to do is not necessarily AGREE that the morbidly obese are beyond diet and exercise, but just HUMOR ME and stipulate to that and THEN consider the question of the surgery.

Basically, what I'm asking you to do is make given assumptions for a variable phenomenon the way that an economist or a mathematician might when postulating.

If that doesn't make sense, then think about this way. We know, for example, that magic isn't real, but when watching a movie like Lord of the Rings, we stipulate that magic is real for the purpose of thinking about the storyline, following the plot and evaluating the entertainment value of the showing.

So, in that SAME WAY, I'm asking you to STIPULATE to a 330 lbs guy being beyond being able to use his willpower to diet and exercise himself to a healthy bodyfat percentage.

I KNOW that you don't agree with this being possible, but that shouldn't prevent you from being able to make this stipulation for the purpose of this mind exercise. Just like knowing that magic isn't real shouldn't prevent you from enjoying the LOTR movies.

So, STIPULATING that this 330 lbs guy will NEVER diet down or exercise, do you want him to STAY 330 lbs or get the surgery?

Thank you.

57

Atecexa - delighted that you helped overcome ADHD through diet. Lots of diseases can be helped through diet. But not all through diet alone.

You are right - you can overcome obesity through diet and exercise - in fact they should always be part of the solution.

But I found, at nearly 400lbs, that willpower alone could NOT stop me over eating. I would try, and keep to a clean diet, and then have an uncontrollable urge to stuff myself. I can only compare it to a drug addict seeking a fix.

I would (and have) lied, stolen, skipped work, stood up friends and let down my family to fill those urges. And afterwards, I would have to wrestle with guilt and shame, which would fuel the downward spiral. (Just writing about this makes me feel worthless and a little crazy)

I think obesity is more complex than people realise. On one level the equation of calories in and out is correct. But it fails to take into account the combination of habit, psychology, social expectation, hormonal changes (fat is a powerful influence on body chemistry, especially when there are 100lbs of it). There is a difference between losing the 10lbs that hide your six pack and trying to halve your bodyweight.

I don't think it can be purely a matter of motivation - I have a biology degree, and know that my weight was killing me, leaving my body in all kinds of trouble. A wedding and a son weren't enough to change things for 5 years, and I love my family more than I can possibly say.

I take full responsibility for my problem, but surgery means for the first time I have found myself in 'control'. Like an alcoholic not having booze in their house, I can't binge anymore. So the emotional rollercoaster is coming under control and I can make better choices.

I think I have said all I want to on this for now, and apologise if I've preached, but I'd like to ask that anyone reading this with a serious obesity issue look into surgery and make a decision reflecting the science rather than the emotion that surrounds it; and whatever tools you use may your god give you the strength to get your life back.

58

"I take full responsibility for my problem"
So how long did you do cognitive behavior therapy before deciding on surgery? not trying to be a hardass but this is a real question.

59

I tried various forms of counselling, but found it left me feeling worse (and worse = binges).

Maybe I'm not facing my problems, but I genuinely feel that losing weight has improved my mental health - certainly my mood is stabilised and I feel more positive.

I think it maybe a bit chicken and egg - do you lose the weight to start feeling better about yourself, or do you start to feel better about yourself so you can lose weight?

60

"Not even freaking close. Ingesting nutrition is a necessary function to live, smoking, drinking, drugs is/are not. "

Actually, if you are a severe alcoholic, and you stop drinking all together, you can die. Doctors actually recommend certain sever alcoholics to actually drink "some" alcohol, or else they'll die. Then eventually, that person may be able to cut themselves cold turkey from alcohol.