It's time for JKD people, that still care about whether or not what they are teaching will help a beginner defend himself, to throw out, and re-tool their entire beginner curriculum. It is time to PRIORITZE. If somebody grabs your neck and you don't even know how to 'turtle neck' properly so that you don't get immediately snapped down into a knee to the face or a choke, then don't friggin worry about a lop sau. You have other things to worry about. Prioritize.
None of this will matter if you don't know how to train. . .in other words, if you still cannot understand the distinction between Alive, and dead training.
But, if you do understand that distinction, and I think many people on this particular forum do (which is rare), then perhaps you should consider working fundementals that are needed to fight in todays world. Change is good. Change is JKD.
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
True... true.
Damn Matt... you're up early... or is it late?
Thanks
-Kev
Learning trapping helps you learn centerline better. All the trapping vunak did really helped him learn to occupy center so well that people that didn't specialize in centerline couldn't stop him. Just because someone advances past a certain technique because of skill doesn't mean the technique is useless. It's what helped get him there.
Also, trapping is very easy to modify to use against grapplers. If you control centerline and thier arms they can't grab you to clinch. Trapping does actually work against any opponent. Centerline is not a wingchun principle, but a fighting principle.
Centerline beats all round attacks because of speed. hooks, clinches, ect. Pummelling works off of centerline principle as well. You don't need your arms on center to be controling it :)
Don't be so quick to count stuff out. Remeber when the ufc came out? striking, boxing, kickboxing in general was considered worthless next to grappling, now most fights in mma are won by strikes :)
Sorry if this post was poorly typed, its 5am, i need to sleep :P
I think there has been some really productive posting going on here lately.
Even the posts by those that 'don't get it' are excellent because they allow yet
another platform from which those of us that do train 'Alive' to get the
message out. Aliveness is spreading, and training methods, and the entire
concept of learning is changing and growing. As Jerry stated rather well
earlier, if everyone had a million bucks, what would it be worth?
We need the 'dont get its' because they are the ones that get the word
out to those seeking something more real, or true. Bruce Lee needed classical
Karate to define economy of motion. We need dead patterns, and their
believers, to define Aliveness.
In that spirit I want to offer what I feel is lacking most with JKD people,
besides the obvious point of Aliveness, (which as you can see is still a mystery
to many) That is the ability to prioritize.
Before I start let me say that I am sure many of you will want to
discuss weapons, as you are primarily concerned with 'self defense'
and we all know how common assaults with weapons are. That is an
excellent point. Let me just say yes, they need to be trained, and by
'they' I mean blades, firearms, pepper mace, and impact weapons.
I am not discussing 3 sectional staffs here. Having said that, Paul Sharp
at the Chicago SBG teaches a weapons program, and although he is
not an SBG'r, I know Demi does as well. I also read Joe discussing this.
I think that is a VERY good thing, and very important. Having said that. . . .
Now here is what I would like to get across:
It's natural for people to resist change. I don't know how many of you
know this, but it was a JKD Instructor by the name Hal Faulkner who
became the first JKD Instructor to really get into BJJ. Last I heard Hal
was now a black belt in CA now.
Anyway, when he brought it to the academy, nobody was interested.
With the exception of Vunak. From that point forward I think Vunak had
more to do with the spread of BJJ in JKD then anyone. Both Hal, and Paul
deserve major credit for that! Believe me when I tell you nobody but Paul
was really that interested. Why? Because you just gouge the eyes of course,
JKD is for street, etc. Same nonsense as is always used, and is still heard
today. It's a credit to Vunak's particular genius that he saw past all that.
Over the next few Years the only JKD people I know of that where active
in BJJ were Paul and all his PFS people, Erik Paulson, and Chris Haueter
(many people do not associate Chris with JKD, but he was actually an
Instructor under Inosanto before he was a Machado Black Belt), and
Richard Bustillo, who had the Machados come in and teach at the IMB
(there may have been a few others, if I missed you my apologies).
The point is MOST JKD people wanted nothing to do with BJJ at this time.
The simple truth was that Paul's people had a big headstart, and it was
not until recently, (last five Years) that most everyone else in JKD jumped
on board.
I can tell you now that the same thing will happen with the clinch.
The talk among JKDr's regarding "trapping" and the modern day MMA
aproaches of a Greco/Freestyle/Muay Thai influenced clinch, is much
the same as the discussion was when the more sheepish JKD'rs
resisted BJJ. And the rationalizing is identical.
To put it simply, it becomes a matter of how to PRIORITZE.
Paul Vunak recently made a post he called the state of the union for PFS. In it he had some kind things to say about the SBG, but in addition he made the following statement:
"I got into a fight with a very famous Wing Chun man (I'm not going to mention his name). When the fight began, I entered with my straight blast, but instead of him turning and covering like everyone else, He occupied centerline as a response, and we were stuck at a reference point. This precipitated a perk Sao/lop Sao from me, and I followed up with several elbows to the face, and was pleased with the result. The very poignant lesson that I learned was this: The only time you ever need to do a Wing Chun trap is if you're fighting a Wing Chun man who happens to occupy center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear me refer to trapping, I'm talking about an entry, straight blast, and head butting, kneeing and elbowing...not some pak sao! "
I think that took a lot of guts to say. I see Paul as a pioneer in the JKD world. And as far trapping is concerned I see him as the best bar none, with the exception of Dan Inosanto. And I say that as someone who has seen Wing Chun people, Original JKD guys, etc. If Paul says the only time you would ever use wing chun based hand trapping is in a fight with a wing chun man, I believe him.
The problem is most JKD Concepts Instructors teach wing Chun based trapping as if it was one of the fundamentals you need for fighting. It clearly is not!
Keep it up Matt and you and I are going to have a throw down come camp time. Either that or I am going to tell everyone what really happened when you were here in Athens.
thanks dude!
Black Belt Mag did an article a number of years ago stating the same theory about boxing and WC. Anyone remember that issue.
KWJ,
that's sacrilege :-)
BenA,
check out my site:
http://go.to/stickgrappler
click the articles link, there's an article which says what you asked about. i do not know if it is true or not.
I heard the blind nun and her student wing chun, were giving free orgies to the French fencers, and invited some British sailors to DP & post pics. Somehow the story got lost in transit....
Hi KWJ, If you ever find those pics. . . .send them to Rory Singer. .he loves that stuff. Especially if there are deaf midgets involved!
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
Thanks Aus, You are probably right. In fact I am sure you are because as you said, in Figgs case, the Arts of boxing, fencing, and cane/staff where taught together.
doesn't anybody believe in the 'blind nun'? I have some sawmp land realestate I want to get rid of.
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
Matt:
Yeah, I recall seeing some old boxing manuals and seeing some of the vertical punching. I believe Dempsey liked that punch as well as a few other old timers. So you are probably on to something.
Now, I believe that the supposed father of Boxing James Figg was into Fencing & Stick Fighting. I wonder how much influence these had on his 'creation' of Boxing? Have you ever seen drawings or woodcuts of him in action? Anyone for that matter?
I think Fencing has some involvement because of the use of terms and concepts in Wing Chun like the Envelopements, Beats, Stop-Hits, Time-Hits, Engagement, etc.
At first I used to think it was just Bruce's terminology that he used since he was into Fencing as well. But, many if not MOST of the hand motions are exactly the same in Wing Chun and Fencing. Jao sao is a simple disengagement, the good ol' reference point would be an Engagement, etc.
Not that it matters, and I'm just putting this stuff up for nostalgia and trivia. I've derailed the thread long enough...I could go on for a LONG time!
I would be interested in seeing some old photos, so when and if you put them up on your site, be sure and let me know.
BTW, thanks for coming on lately. I've been enjoying your posts and interaction with everyone here. You are doing a serious service with your message and keep it up!
All the best,
Aus
Haislett's old boxing book (the one Bruce took quite a few of his notes from, word for word) has a centerline theory in it as well.
Ive been told that western boxing was derived from the phillipines ? Can anyone shed any light on this?
Anyone ever notice that to us one of boxings main training tools, the speed bag you have to throw centerline punches to make to stay straight? Just a thought about the whole WC-Boxing connection thing :)
That's a good theory, and certainly sounds more valid then a blind nun.
I am fairly confident that western boxing had a heavy influence on Wing Chun. I collect old manuals and books regarding boxing, wrestling, etc. And in older boxing books you can see texts, pictures, and drawings describing, simultanous cover and hit with a vertical fist, rolling vertical fist straight blast, the concept of centerline, etc. If I ever get a chance I'd like to put a section on the website, complete with photos that shows some of this.
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
Nice posts by all!
Matt, you mentioned about the British sailors...not to sidetrack or derail things too much, but I have (as mentioned previously) a pet theory that Wing Chun was derived from fencing. A sort of unarmed fencing.
Many European nations were exploring the orient and in particular the Portugese were fond of China. It is my opinion that the Chinese may have either learned the unarmed fencing from the Portugese (in which case for some reason it has died out among the Portugese) or the Chinese did it themselves.
History is there, the terminology is there, even some of the training methods are there. Anyone who has taken Fencing and Wing Chun woul have noticed.So perhaps the martial art in this case went from West to East.
And now back to your regularly scheduled posting....
Hey Adam! Don't pick on the old man! I can't help it I keep getting older every year! LOL, my wife keeps telling me it's all in my head, but it sure takes me a while to get warmed up, and I can feel the attributes slipping away slowly! I have to figure out Guro Dan's secrets!
I actually have a couple of guys who love to spar, and one of them is very tough on the ground, as well. My big thing is time! I work all week, teach 4 kids classes and 13 adult classes during the evenings and on Saturday. My wife likes to see me come home every now and again. Plus I have 3 seminars coming up (just got through with Erik Paulson, and Prof. Pedro Sauer in Jan and Feb). Sifu is having an instructor's conference, Guro Dan is having his in March, and we have the SE Martial Arts Conference in April (Sifu, Guro, & Ajarn Chai). If you guys ever feel like a road trip on a Saturday afternoon, I can surely round up a couple of guys to spar and/or roll with your guys!
Steve
Scott,
Hey, I wasn't actually disagreeing with you! I agree with about 99% of what's written on this thread, because most of the Wing Chun I've seen has not been that good. I have been lucky to train with Sifu Francis who is not a traditional WC guy, even though he knows and can teach the system traditionally. He's all about application.
Another guy who is probably one of the best people I know (after Sifu) when it comes to applied Wing Chun is Eddie Camden, who started out under one of Sifu Moy Yat's guys, then moved to Atlanta and trained with us here since 1990. He's also under Sifu Dan, and a brown belt under Pedro Sauer (he's a killer on the ground). Excellent stand up and ground skills.
Wing Chun to me is not about trapping, it's about sensitivity, timing, and leverage, which is best learned through chi sao, which is WC's version of resistance training (i.e. against an uncooperative partner). The fact that one person is not knocking the other out doesn't make it cooperative. But like many drills, people get caught up in the drill and miss the whole point of what the drill is supposed to develop! What was it Sijo said? "Don't look at the finger or you'll miss all that heavenly glory?" Very apt.
continued