big_slacker - I"d hate to go 3 levels deep on an analogy, but MS's attempt to 'own' the market was seen early and slapped around a lot by regulation. Had they not been it's likely a lot more of your personal information would be owned by MS and their licensing schemes would be even worse than they are now. The same is true of government attempts to censor and control the flow of information on the internet. (See SOPA recently) This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, it's just about $$ (in the case of MS) and power in the case of the US gov.
I understand the aversion to tinfoil hat stuff, but some people do try to educated themselves about what they put in their mouths (and what the nation as a whole does and it's effects) and do draw some logical conclusions based on what they read. That doesn't mean they're an expert, but I'd say it does mean they shouldn't be discounted as a 'wikipedia expert'. I'd say I read a couple nutritional articles a week and I usually go look at cited studies to the extent that they don't lose me. ;)
That aside, I see that most of what you're posting has to do with production/yield. And I understand that monsanto (and others of course, I don't want to single out just them) have helped with the shift towards much greater yields, along with nationwide and worldwide supply chains. This is a good thing in terms of getting food to plates and boosting profits for the companies involved and I get that is the point you're making.
My concern is more one of quality of our food. You mentioned specifically studies about grass fed vs. corn fed beef. I've also read about the antioxidant and omega 3 profiles being better in the grass fed but negligible in terms of the human diet (you get a lot more of the good stuff from a salmon steak, fish oil caps, chia seeds, flax, etc...) but total fat content and cholesterol *IS* higher in corn fed vs grass fed across the same breed and cuts. For reference this is the review that I read (after reading an alarmist article and googling for the source) and probably the same one you did?
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10
If the vast majority of what a non-nutri-geek sees when he walks into the meat section in his supermarket is corn fed, higher fat/cal stuff and that's what he eats for dinner every night what happens? Now what happens if there is a similar shift in all of the other foods people eat? I'm talking the corn syrup in everything, hydrogenated veg oil in everything, etc... That is great for low price and shelf life (which probably STARTED as noble goals) but pretty bad for the waistlines and overall health of our nation.
Now this is where we get into the discussion of who is ultimately responsible for a person's health, the individual or the producer. That's a tricky one, right? It's easy enough to say that producers are just giving people what they want and delivering that well. But if you're a results based person you look at where that gets us, with heart disease and obesity rates at shameful levels. This is where regulation and public information about the effects of food are supposed to come into play. And this is where companies like monsanto get themselves their reputation. They've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar subverting the regulatory process, they spend a LOT of money trying to block information like food labeling (7m+ fighting prop 37 in CA for instance) and people are supposed to believe they're on the up and up?
Nowhere would I say throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of advances in food productions. I would expect also that we wouldn't put our heads in the sand and say that yield and profit over the health of our nation isn't an issue with food production either. It's not good enough to say that problems with regulation happen everywhere and there can be conflict of interest. It's clear that there *IS* and the consequences have been devastating whether it's the financial industry or the food industry.
About growing stuff in the back yard, I think the owner is ok with backyard boxes and any kind of non permanent irrigation. We've got a pretty damn fertile climate here in the PacNW for growing, and I've become such a fan of truly fresh produce that I gotta get moving on this. :)
Finally, Sewich. We're trying to have a discussion here that benefits everyone. If you've got something to add let's hear it. You don't have to pick a team and cheerlead or fight.
I will choose a side and fight because being a farmer I get this fucking shit all the time and it pisses me right the fuck off. People who have no idea wtf they are talking about. All they do is quote these biased food docs like Food, inc. I'm not Dakotajudo who did a very good job of taking time to spell this stuff out for you guys. I don't feel obligated to teach city boys shit I would much rather say fuck you. Talk to me when people who don't know anything about your job start preaching about how bad your job is for everyone yet still reap the benefits from your job.
The only thing I can say from my end, is that none of this stuff is personal. I am not attacking anyone personally and I do not take anything that anyone says to me in an internet forum personally. If you choose to take it personally, that's up to you (however I do not recommend it).
No one is saying anything about you, your family, etc,
The guidelines of how to conduct yourself on these forums are clear. I have been a moderator for years and do my best to keep things civil.
Hey Raveman...Not sure I agree with the idea that simply having a higher number of folks eat a plant based diet, automatically = less industrailized farming.
MONSANTO = PURE EVIL. STOP GMO at all costs. Do your homework and see if this is a easy or hard. While you are at it, look into what farming on a large scale does to top soil, etc.
Big_Slacker...Great to hear that you have experienced health benefits from changing your personal eating plan.
I do not have a name for the way I eat, but if someone were tp pigeon-hole it I would say it looks like a PALEO approach. In all honesty I don't consume a lot of red meat, but I do eat eggs, and raw milk, as well as chicken and fish occasionally.
All meats that I buy are free range (wild caught), organic, etc. Beef (bison, etc) is always free-range, grass fed, organic. I only drink whole raw milk (and don't drink it that often). I use protein powder that has no colors, additives, flavors etc. I consume a good amount of leafy greens, fresh fruits, raw nuts and seeds, etc. I avoid bread, pasta (all refined carbs). Don't eat beans or potato's either. I rarely consume tempeh or tofu products.
My body seems to function best on this sort of plan. I have experimented with many approaches and this one "feels" best for me.
TAKU
I'd love to know how Taku and people on paleo/vegan diets keep their calories up. I recently went on paleo for a cut and am stuffing my face like a madman just to get my calories where I want them (3100-3500).
After this I want to add some muscle mass and I don't see how sufficiently I can eat in the 4000-5000 calories per day range on a paleo diet.
I'm eating entire meals of meat/veggies/nuts/fruit/oils every few hours... these aren't snacking portions!
Hey Raveman...Not sure I agree with the idea that simply having a higher number of folks eat a plant based diet, automatically = less industrailized farming.
MONSANTO = PURE EVIL. STOP GMO at all costs. Do your homework and see if this is a easy or hard. While you are at it, look into what farming on a large scale does to top soil, etc.
Big_Slacker...Great to hear that you have experienced health benefits from changing your personal eating plan.
I do not have a name for the way I eat, but if someone were tp pigeon-hole it I would say it looks like a PALEO approach. In all honesty I don't consume a lot of red meat, but I do eat eggs, and raw milk, as well as chicken and fish occasionally.
All meats that I buy are free range (wild caught), organic, etc. Beef (bison, etc) is always free-range, grass fed, organic. I only drink whole raw milk (and don't drink it that often). I use protein powder that has no colors, additives, flavors etc. I consume a good amount of leafy greens, fresh fruits, raw nuts and seeds, etc. I avoid bread, pasta (all refined carbs). Don't eat beans or potato's either. I rarely consume tempeh or tofu products.
My body seems to function best on this sort of plan. I have experimented with many approaches and this one "feels" best for me.
TAKU
I'd love to know how Taku and people on paleo/vegan diets keep their calories up. I recently went on paleo for a cut and am stuffing my face like a madman just to get my calories where I want them (3100-3500).
After this I want to add some muscle mass and I don't see how sufficiently I can eat in the 4000-5000 calories per day range on a paleo diet.
I'm eating entire meals of meat/veggies/nuts/fruit/oils every few hours... these aren't snacking portions!
I can eat a lean grass-fed steak in one sitting that nearly satisfies your calorie requirements and still be hungry. Forget about adding in fruits, nuts, or eggs. And I won't even mention oils...3 tbl spoons of cod liver oil is pushing 400 calories all by itself.
Paleo can be tough for guys who can't eat much but want to keep their calories high.
I think the vast majority of vegans are healthier, however. Of course there are the junk food vegans/vegetarians that we've spoken of in many threads in the past but I rarely see vegans who don't know about b12 or omega-3s etc whilst I see even body builders who only understand macros and not trace minerals, nutrients, vitamins, etc.
That being said, your coach/trainer, OP is a bit nuts...Gorillas also have little peckers so does that suggest that dudes with small penises are stronger than dudes with larger penises?
Taku, it is actually better for the environment, it's just hard to really conceptualize it but overall, the major production of grain and soy and corn (all terrible things) are done to fatten up livestock (also something they shouldn't be consuming since they ruminant animals. So, that alone is "better" for the environment.
The majority of cropland, in the United States, falls to four crops - wheat, corn, soybean and alfalfa, mostly equally divided among the four; the rest is mostly small grains like oats or barley, some sorghum or sunflower, but for now we can ignore those.
Wheat is not fed to livestock - it's too valuable as human food. Been a stable for millennia. Soybean, about half is processed for animal feed - it's a good protein source compared to forages and it's a good complement for other protein sources, with regard to amino acid balance, as well.
Corn is the only grain where the major production goes to cattle feed. I don't know why you'd think cattle shouldn't be consuming corn, simply because their ruminants. Perhaps you think their feed only grain corn during finishing?
The farm I grew up on, we fed out roughly 200 head of yearlings a year; about 100 or so were raised in pasture on our land up to weaning, the others usually came from further west.
(This is important - calves and breeding herds are kept on pasture in dry regions, where crops don't grow well, then shipped for finishing to regions where crops predominate - this is an efficient use of agricultural resources. You would tend to burn the same amount of fossil fuels to plant poor cropland for less return.)
Anyway, feeder calves typically got a mix of alfalfa and silage; silage being the whole corn plant, chopped up. This is little different that grass, other than it lacks the noxious weeds that tend to make hay unpalatable. They would only get about 10% corn grain sprinkled on top.
This was always fun. I had to carry corn in buckets by hand from the grain bins to the feed lot. You know the Farmer's Walk exercise? That's what I did for real, about 200 meters one way.
And the last 50 meters was usually through a crowd. Steers love corn - love it. Here I am, a buck-thirty in high school, a five gallon bucket of corn in each hand, trying to work through a crowd of 600 pound adolescent animals, all wanting some of that sweet, sweet corn. Sure, it's relatively high calorie content, but, as an exercise enthusiast, you should know that to gain mass, you need to maintain a reasonable level of macronutrients. Since cattle don't handle lipids that well, it's carbs.
The diets the cattle receive, in production, are usually based on the recommendations of animal nutritionists - people who go to school specifically as health and nutrition majors, but for animals.
But, back to last of the big four - alfalfa. Alfalfa is good stuff. It's perennial, so putting a field into alfalfa for a few years reduces tillage; it's a legume so it helps restore soil nitrogen, it works well in dry environments, it's a great source of protein, and since it's a forage crop in it can be planted as a mix - with clover or grass, perhaps.
Trouble is, people don't eat it. They could, I suppose, but people are fussy about what they eat these days. The only way to profitably use alfalfa is to feed to cattle, or sheep. Not hogs, though.
So, if you look at the overall picture, eating beef is "better" for the environment.
Why is wheat so popular even though since 2005 we have testing that shows it causes celiacs and people have wheat allergy why not produce more corn, oats and steer people to eat alfalfa...
nah, mate. The question itself. Why would someone think that vegans who are supposedly primarily carb-heavy and Paleo who are supposedly protein and fat heavy would have a hard time calorically?
I think when people think vegan they think you're throwing down massive portions of veggies at every meal. Yeah, brocoli has big volume and low calories, you could get full but not get enough cals.
I blend a lot of fruits/veggies. Each shake has around 750-800 cals and that's 3 servings I drink throughout the day.
Meals generally are made up of 1/3rd of a plate of beans/lentils, 1/3rd grains (brown rice, quinoa), and 1/3rd veggies.
I eat a good amount of avocado, nuts and some peanut butter.
I can track my meals tomorrow and let you know my total, but I'm sure it's right around the same as when I ate meat.
big_slacker - I think when people think vegan they think you're throwing down massive portions of veggies at every meal. Yeah, brocoli has big volume and low calories, you could get full but not get enough cals.
I blend a lot of fruits/veggies. Each shake has around 750-800 cals and that's 3 servings I drink throughout the day.
Meals generally are made up of 1/3rd of a plate of beans/lentils, 1/3rd grains (brown rice, quinoa), and 1/3rd veggies.
I eat a good amount of avocado, nuts and some peanut butter.
I can track my meals tomorrow and let you know my total, but I'm sure it's right around the same as when I ate meat.
I was jsut doing strength training and after that had my first meal of the day:
half Pinapple 1 Banana 1 appel 30-40 Gramm Rice/Pea/Hemp Protein some raw cacao some walnuts some almonds spoon of peanut butter some oatmeal mixed with water
This has a lot of calories and I am full but in a good way.
Normally I will have the same amount in the afternoon and in the evening I will have a full meal.
For example couscous salad with avocado, tempee, sunflower seeds, vegetables.
When I was doing a fat loss diet. I was restricting myself to 2500 calories. And I can tell you that was much much less food than I eat now. I belive I eat around 3500-4500 calories a day.
big_slacker - I think when people think vegan they think you're throwing down massive portions of veggies at every meal. Yeah, brocoli has big volume and low calories, you could get full but not get enough cals.
I blend a lot of fruits/veggies. Each shake has around 750-800 cals and that's 3 servings I drink throughout the day.
Meals generally are made up of 1/3rd of a plate of beans/lentils, 1/3rd grains (brown rice, quinoa), and 1/3rd veggies.
I eat a good amount of avocado, nuts and some peanut butter.
I can track my meals tomorrow and let you know my total, but I'm sure it's right around the same as when I ate meat.
according to the paleo community all vegans sit around and eat grains. I mean if Wolff and Asprey said it on the JRE it must be true. lmao
I haven't tracked calories in a long time but I bet, like big_slacker said it's up there.
I usually don't have breakfast until 1-2 pm. Today it will probably be 2-3 eggs, a tempeh/quinoa "burger", some lentils (all protein basically), and a big bowl of leafy greens, tomato and whatever else I have in the fridge, handful of almonds, coconut oil, avocado.
I'll probably have another light meal later in the evening of some oat bran, coconut flakes, peanut butter, walnuts, berries, apple and some pineapple or banana all tossed together like a cold porridge.
If I am to explain the structure of the meal like you had, I'd say it's more like a big bed of greens/veggies then protein resting on top of it lke a sleeping man and the starches/carbs are like a pillow, small.
edit: just realized I got voted down in another thread for explaining history to someone (just thought it humorous to mention lol)
I was jsut doing strength training and after that had my first meal of the day:
half Pinapple 1 Banana 1 appel 30-40 Gramm Rice/Pea/Hemp Protein some raw cacao some walnuts some almonds spoon of peanut butter some oatmeal mixed with water
This has a lot of calories and I am full but in a good way.
Normally I will have the same amount in the afternoon and in the evening I will have a full meal.
For example couscous salad with avocado, tempee, sunflower seeds, vegetables.
When I was doing a fat loss diet. I was restricting myself to 2500 calories. And I can tell you that was much much less food than I eat now. I belive I eat around 3500-4500 calories a day.
haha DAMN son that's one big post work out meal.
I think people are hung up on the whole "if it's not a big bowl of mashed potatoes it's not going to fill you up". When in reality, like you said, you feel full way easier and in a good way. cheers for some examples, voted up
