problem is, if you lift hard and train later you cant hardly
imagine blasting your arms and shoulders in the gym then trying to train bjj a few hrs later
or doing some squats and having that terrible muscle soreness going on while you're working foot work and sparring
typical weight routines and fighting dont mix very well.
Training for strength or aesthetic appearance (intense muscular hypertrophy) is not advantageous to martial artists.
The simple formula for understanding "power" in martial arts techniques is F = ma or "force is the result of mass times acceleration." Essentially, to increase force (the power of your punch, for example) you must either increase your mass acting upon your opponent ("Put your *** in it" or increase your acceleration (the rate of change of velocity over time or essentially your "speed").
As Quinton "Rampage" Jackson states so "eloquently;" "Me? How I punch so hard? Put my *** in it. 'Cause I try to knock you on yo **. Its all about **. People don't know that."
(Directed) practice is crucial to developing technique. As you will see, improvements in technique are additive. Improvements in technique can help you recruit more mass for the technique as well as increases in acceleration. The importance of recruiting more mass and increasing acceleration are explained in some detail in the following:
In order to increase your mass acting upon your opponent you can either increase your mass (feasible to some degree but dramatic increases in muscle mass are typically slow twitch muscle fibers which can decrease your accleration) or improve your technique such that you are recruiting more of your mass for your technique. In other words, improve your technique.
In order to increase your acceleration you can either increase the numbers of fast twitch muscle fibers involved or you can simply improve your technique. As previously stated, improvements in technique are additive. Increasing your fast twitch muscle fibers could slightly increase your mass and should provide some increased acceleration. Strength and conditioning for fast twitch muscle fibers enhances motor neuron excitability and induces synaptogenesis, both of which would help in enhancing communication between the nervous system and the muscles themselves. Such training should include cross training and plyometrics premised upon interval training.
Proper technique is known (in biomechanics) as kinetic linking or kinetic chains, which is the use of torque, rotation and the sequential acceleration to increase the power of a given technique. The principle (of kinetic linking or kinetic chains) that body segments generate high end-point velocity by accelerating and decelerating adjacent links, using internal and external muscle torques applied to the body segments in a sequential manner from proximal to distal, from massive to least massive, and from most fixed to most free. The kinetic link principle is applied when different body segments rotate during throwing and kicking.
Let's review the hook (punch) case of accelerating the striking surface towards the point of impact. The fighter does not simply swing his arm for the knockout. He uses the torque and rotation of his body to store kinetic energy. As he begins his punch the stored energy is released and multiplied by the sequential use of the ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulders, arms and finally the hand.
These actions have been likened to the motion of a bullwhip. If segmental rotations are free to occur at the distal end, the body's base-segments in contact with the ground act like the handle of a bull-whip. Just as the tip of the bullwhip can be made to travel at supersonic speed, the small distal segments of the hand and foot can be made to travel very fast by the sequential acceleration and deceleration of the body segments.
As a result of the importance of (directed) practice, exercises which emulate the technique utilized in martial arts will result in enhanced speed and improved technique. After all, the exercise is designed to emulate (as much as possible) the technique performed hence you are increasing the effect of exercise toward the primary goal which is to improve fighting ability.
cheesesteak - Not the super swole hormone infested pros. But lets say a fighter did that typical isolation routine and just trained fighting more along with cardio.
Wouldn't this be more productive? I mean since your making individual muscles stronger and combining it with the explosiveness developed when actually fighting.
I see all these fighters doing extreme gym class style s&c and wonder if it's kind of like double dipping. How about if you did a fast simple bb routine and used the extra time to just train more fighting. Wouldn't you be mega strong and mega technical? No?
No.
A typical bodybuilding routine places way too much recovery demand. Even if you turn down the intensity, too much volume. This is the primary reason most other athletes don't train like that.
Plus, you have to worry about cardio and conditioning.
As such, most MMA fighters, wrestlers, BJJers etc, take a shotgun approach to strength and conditioning, hitting a handful of exercises hard, and letting their sport practice handle the rest. I've done it both ways, and can say the latter is better.
You don't need things like Romanian Deadlifts, shrugs, or rear delt flyes, most of the time, especially if you're already doing a few core lifts (deadlifts, pullups etc). Keep it simple.
markiz - Typical bodybuilder's routine is next to useless for MMA fighter these days.
Even if you consider a typical amateurish type of BB workout.
It is shite, cuz it's designed to make you look good in the first place.
That kind of routine is very static in nature, takes a lot of time, and you're developing something that is completely unnecessary for a fighter, like very nice bicep.
You'd spend a lot of energy training large muscle groups and smaller (which is completely useless).
A fight is rather dynamic/isometric type of thing, so you need to do plyo, you need endurance, strenght and isometric excersice, also lots of flexibility.
BB training gives you only strenght and not quite what you'd want being in a fight.
That's why MMa fighters train very very differently.
I mean look at Mariusz Pudzianowski - he was a strongman (so his training was much more strenght oriented, much more explosive, much closer to what you really need) and he still looked kinda weak in the actual fight compared to some monsters we have in mma.
Sure he would outdeadlift'em all, but in the actual fight he was much weaker.
You have to train for what you will be doing, and bb training isn't it.
good post. Mariusz looked WAY stronger than everyone he has fought... for the first two minutes. Then he gassed.
Even Strongman, which has much higher conditioning demands than say, Oly lifting or powerlifting, is a rather anaerobic sport.
SPIDERHLUK - lol everyone got all mad.
what would happen is, you'd look good (homo) both ways, but lifting like a bodybuilder you'd look good quicker. ppl r saying bodybuilders aren't "strong" are sort of half correct - they're way stronger than mma fighters at lifting heavy pieces of metal, but in terms of functional, grappling strength, they are very weak. if you can, imagine how something like a deadlift or squat works. you slowly put all of your power in your hands, then use your biceps to lift up a heavy stick. in terms of like, clinching up with a guy standing, having a guy in your guard/being in someones guard, etc., you use completely different strength.
kettlebells and grappling are the best builders of "fighting" strength, imo.
also, to "really" be "like" a bodybuilder would imply eating all day, resting all day, which is bad for technique/cardio training, plus you'd be bulking yourself up for no gain. so you'd be fighting weight classes above, while having low cardio, and still get manhandled in the clinch.
Hmmm, I'm inclined to agree for the most part, except some of the strongest newbs I've rolled with were bodybuilders too. All that muscle does translate into "strength" if they know how to use it. Unfortunately it also translates to more cardio demand.
Which is another thing the OP needs to consider. The more supporting/secondary muscle you have, the greater the demand on your cardiovascular system. A larger bicep will almost always help, unless it's accompanied with larger delts, traps, lats, quads etc. Of course, this is all fixed by being in the right weight class.
Dogmeat 1 - I'm going to take a guess that most people here actually have no idea how bodybuilders or professional athletes train. Actually the routines used by of strength athletes (american football, rugby, MMA, wrestlier, etc) aren't actually too different from those used by bodybuilders. The main difference is the volume; athletes are lifting for overall strength and need to spend more of their time doing sport specific training where as bodybuilders are purely focused on building size/balancing our their body. However the training itself can be quite similar are a lot of current and past MMA stars who basically train that way. That doesn't mean they cover themselves in oil and prance around in man-panties but few people doing bodybuilding actually do that either.
The stereotype that people have of bodybuilders comes from the fact that after a certain point getting bigger becomes as much a disadvantage as it is an advantage. The way human's bodies develop just makes weights approaching 300lbs and heights over 6'6" less than ideal. All super-heavy weight sized athletes tend to struggle in general athletic pursuits and it's not just something that is limited to someone dedicated to bodybuilding. However in general bodybuilders are very athletic, especially the ones who aren't solely focused on pure size.
If the question was should an MMA train using the volume and intensity as bodybuilder then the answer would be an emphatic no. That would be idiotic and would mean they would have to sacrifice a lot of their other training for little net benefit. However if the question was would it be beneficial for a fighter looking to improve their overall strength to incorporate some bodybuilding training into their workouts then the answer is probably yes. Most fighters already do. There is a strong argument that powerlifting style training is more efficient but I do like the bodybuilder ideal of creating balanced strength rather than specialising in a few areas.
Great post, I'd vote you up if I could.
the NYBA won this weekend
/thread
UGCTT_UncleCreepy - well... when are you ever going to curl someone in a fight?
Would you like to get curled bro?!? 
Baroni.
They'd gas and it'd get annoying. 
UGCTT_painbringer -
I love that Baroni vid, so freakin funny.
But ya It's becoming obvious that fight training should require a goo s&c routine rather than a bb one. I agree that things like biceps, shoulder and triceps isolation are useless.
However, alot of back routine I could see being beneficial if combined with a good s&c routine, no?
Dogmeat has already given the best answer - a lot of MMA fighters already use the same exercises and rep schemes as BBs for their resistance training. The big difference is the volume, BBs will train more exercises for more sets on more days because they don't have to fit in the cardio and skill training an MMA fighter does.
The stuff about BB muscles not being strong or flexible is frankly mythology.
HULC - Dogmeat has already given the best answer - a lot of MMA fighters already use the same exercises and rep schemes as BBs for their resistance training. The big difference is the volume, BBs will train more exercises for more sets on more days because they don't have to fit in the cardio and skill training an MMA fighter does.
The stuff about BB muscles not being strong or flexible is frankly mythology.
"The stuff about BB muscles not being strong or flexible is frankly mythology."
This I agree with. I know a few guys at my bjj school who train bb style lifting and the reason they have given me is vanity. lol...But one of them practices yoga on a daily basis, the other is at the academy 24-7, you have to peel him off the mat.
Both are flexible as hell, fast, strong, cardio for days and can straight out steamroll you with there strength if they wanted too.
Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on type of lifting. The gravy is in the actual sport training itself.
cheesesteak -HULC - Dogmeat has already given the best answer - a lot of MMA fighters already use the same exercises and rep schemes as BBs for their resistance training. The big difference is the volume, BBs will train more exercises for more sets on more days because they don't have to fit in the cardio and skill training an MMA fighter does.
The stuff about BB muscles not being strong or flexible is frankly mythology.
"The stuff about BB muscles not being strong or flexible is frankly mythology."
This I agree with. I know a few guys at my bjj school who train bb style lifting and the reason they have given me is vanity. lol...But one of them practices yoga on a daily basis, the other is at the academy 24-7, you have to peel him off the mat.
Both are flexible as hell, fast, strong, cardio for days and can straight out steamroll you with there strength if they wanted too.
Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on type of lifting. The gravy is in the actual sport training itself.
That's true to a great extent. Of course at some point larger muscles will begin to interfere with flexibility, and a larger muscle mass will put a bigger drain on the cardio system so can gas people quicker.
But the important fact here is that it's the muscle itself that does this, not the style of training. You would get the same drawbacks if you gained the muscle doing crossfit or any other style of training. Only you would have to train longer to gain the same amount of muscle.
ssj - I knock out bodybuilders every day
meathead muscles are nothing on real fighting
How about if those meathead muscles trained harder than you in standup and practiced jogging and sprinting more than you and practiced yoga to the point of being way more flexible than you?
It sure helped overeem! He started training with the powerlifters and strongmen,and he hasn't stopped winning since.
MMA GUYS always fall for the "functional" scam. Training in gas masks and kettlebells and crossfit or whatever is trendy.
Best cardio in MMA belong to the Diaz brothers. They don't do crossfit or whatever is hyped. They simply run, swim,bike.
Strongest guys in MMA were Brock and Overeem. They didn't do olympic lifting or benching on a medicine ball. They did old school weight lifting, deadlifts,etc.
It's not about curls and calf raises. It should be about basic whole body exercises with enough resistance to gain strength. HW's have an advantage because they barely have to cut weight at all, but the strength training can be done by anyone as long as volume and diet are kept under control to limit muscle gain....
I can tell most of you are nerds who don't train or workout. You probably just let Joe Rogan tell you what body types are best for fighting. You can lift and still have awesome cardio. You just can't slack on cardio. If you do both correctly (and stay off roids) you won't have that overly muscular look and you'll still have plenty of endurance. I bike, swim, run, and body build and finish most long distance races/endurance events in the top 3. You just can't slack on cardio in order to gain muscle mass. That's where most guys screw up.
I'm pretty sure GSP hits the weight room on the regular.
this
12 - this
Not really, that was an unfair match being that the bb only bodybuilds. What if that bb was a black belt in bjj and ran triathalons for fun?
I also was a body builder before I started training in the mid 90s, I was strong for about 5 mins and gassed out easy, almost embarrassing. I started mountain biking, leaned up a bit (still lifting a bit) from 210 to 195 at 5'9, also became more limber.