TexDeuce - I wish I was good at judo. Have been thinking about doing it on the side. I have trained with some judo blackbelts, when they get you right they really can get your airborne. Though I notice I can pull double and single legs on them sometimes too easy. Not on all of the judo guys, but some of them that obviously have neglected the leg grabbing aspect of the takedown.
That is because the rules of Judo don't allow single leg takedowns. When I competed in the 90's you could still do a double leg (Morote Gari). In the last few years there was another rule change where you can not grab the legs at all, unless it is off another attack.
Since I also wrestled and have been doing BJJ for a number of years I can usually stop leg grabs because I am use to those attacks. Unless the guy is a good college wrestler and sets up the attack well. Judoka prefer to stand up instead using a lower wrestling type stance. If I know I am going against a good wrestler I will usually lower my stance.
And per this thread, my favorite throw in BJJ is Uchimata. But, as someone mentioned this is easy for me because it was my best throw in Judo and I have done it thousands of times.
At the risk of too much self promotion (when has that ever stopped me before?), I'll be doing a seminar on May 24 at Ground Control Owings Mill (near Baltimore) and a good chunk of my seminar will be focused on takedowns and throws specifically geared for BJJ.
I prefer yoko tomoe nage over tomoe nage. The angle seems to work better with the bent over posture.
I like the morote seoi nage over the ippon seoi or the drop knee seoi because less exposure of the back.
I don't like the osoto gari if the opponent is bent over, too much distance betwen you & your opponent. You end up reaching for it & a simple leg grab could easily counter the attempt. There is a way to get it on an angle. Sort of in bewtween osoto gari & harai goshi. Also, Since he is bent over, hit the sasae tsurikomi Ashi a few times. If you don't get it they will counter with a more upright posture then you can hit the osoto. (you can go back & forth between the osoto & sasae. If the counter one of them they set themselves up for the other & viceversa)
I've always struggled with the traditional uchi mata but there is a version if the guy is bent over instead of making hip to hip contact you "pick" their near leg at the back of the knee area that I've found effective. Big hand movement is a must.
Ouchi & ko-uchi are an effective combo. Even if you don't get the throw, its low risk & sets up all sorts of other moves.
There are some effective ankle picks from either the collar side grip or sleeve side grip.
Of course some of the Russian pickups are pretty good too. Lots of stuff to take a guy down. Remember all judo throws were specifically developed to take a gi-wearing guy down into a dominant position.
I have had lots of success with foot sweeps. Problem is, they take thousands of reps and a few stubbed/broken toes before you can make someone stumble, let alone take them down. Most people want a quicker fix
Yoko tomoe nage imo. Also, throws are great and all, but if you have no skill at grip fighting and understanding of position than learning specific throws is a waste of time.
Seriously though, it really depends, on the student, on how much time they are going to devote, on the mat surface they will be falling on, whether it's gi or no-gi, etc.
As metioned O Uchi/ Ko Uchi is alway a good starting point, but ANY takedown can work for somone.
Personally, I think GENTLE takedowns is where it's at for BJJ. If you teach high-amplitude throws to most people who don't get thrown a lot, they will NOT enjoy it and consequently won't practice it much.
Teach a typical BJJ class Ippon Seoi Nage and after they do it a few times they will start standing around with the "I'm ready to move on" body posture. But if you teach something like a high single leg takedown with a couple easy finishes, they will practice it a lot longer, just because it doesn't hurt to fall. I think that's an important factor, particulaly for typical BJJ students who are not motivated to study wrestling or Judo on the side.
Blown383 - Uchi mata is the HARDEST throw to learn and get good at!-B
Which Newbreed instructor are you? I met Johnny and Chris when the Newbreed gym was opened in Portland.
And I was curious as to why you think Uchimata is the hardest throw to learn and get good at?
It's a small world!! My name is Binhtri and Johnny has been my coach for the last 15 years. Uchi mata is difficult for beginners because there's a ZILLION steps that must be practiced for a VERY long time in order for the throw to be effective and have a high success rate.Common newbie uchi mata problems.1) The student needs to get kuzushi from a distance before the entry into the throw. Its hard for a student to learn how to snap the pull before their feet move.2) The footwork is really awkward because you're stepping towards uke, but when the foot lands, you're facing away from them. Not only that but when the 2nd leg comes into play it goes in deep past the first leg. This is confusing for a beginner!3) The entry to the throw is also shallow because you need space to pull uke on to your hip/thigh. This is also confusing because most of the other throws work on immediate hip to hip contact.4) Once the student gets the entry and uke is loaded up - Most students will kick back with a bent leg or the entry was off and the throw becomes loose/sloppy.5) Another common mistake is that the student will forget to elevate uke with the secondary leg. They'll attempt the throw flat footed versus raising their heel off the ground.6) Once uke is in the air most students will forget to rotate/twist their shoulders, pull with their arms, and look in the direction of the throw. Once the student is able to combine all of those steps and execute them with perfect timing....you have a BADASS throw that's gorgeous to watch. -B
Thanks for the explanation and the videos. For me it is easier to hit Uchimata against a BJJ guy vs a Judo guy because they are already leaning forward. I also like use a European version where my attacking leg (say right) hits their opposite leg (left). Similar to a Ken Ken Uchimata in this video but I don't hop unless I get stuck.
Blown 383- excellent points. that is why we practice uchimokis(stationary and moving) and throws on the crash pads every session. The step in-lifting-pulling to off balance uke and transferring weight to the rear leg is the key. The Koreans train to turn your head in an arc at the end to complete the throw. A slight variation than the Japanese.
judoblackbelt - Blown 383- excellent points. that is why we practice uchimokis(stationary and moving) and throws on the crash pads every session. The step in-lifting-pulling to off balance uke and transferring weight to the rear leg is the key. The Koreans train to turn your head in an arc at the end to complete the throw. A slight variation than the Japanese.
Thanks! I'm still working on my judo and one day I would like it to be as smooth as my BJJ. Always a work in progress!
Uchimata is a tough throw, but one of the things about it that's complicated is that nobody in competition throws the way they teach it. When teaching it, you maintain distance, your lapel hand is always with the elbow down and in your opponent's armpit lifting them, your leg is always straight, you are lifting the sleeve very high for kuzushi, etc.
Then go watch an uchimata highlight from high-level judo competitions. Almost without exception, the throw is executed with a high grip with the elbow flared upwards, the leg is always bent as a hook rather than straight, there is almost no sleeve lift, and the entry is "Inoue" style where you step as deep as possible and bang into the guy with the hip. In other words, exactly 180 degrees opposite of how you are taught to do it. There are several uchimata HLs on youtube, and you will see 10 minutes of this style.
So there seems to be a dichotomy between the very difficult and beautiful classic uchimata taught in class, and the actual uchimata you see in high-level competition. I get that you want to teach the pure technical uchimata for pedagogic purposes, but that doesn't seem to be how people generally use it in the real world.
Mighty Cthulhu-I have to agree with everything you have mentioned. The technique is taught/practiced the same almost everywhere but in competition because of moving/resting opponent there are subtle differences. If you are chasing the opponent you have to step in deeper. It could be the second throw in a combination. Some players have shoulder injures that prevent them from the high pull with the sleeve hand. So on and so on. But the mechanics are taught the same. Just in competition you can off balance the opponent by moving them and throw them without the perfect mechanics.
judoblackbelt - Mighty Cthulhu-I have to agree with everything you have mentioned. The technique is taught/practiced the same almost everywhere but in competition because of moving/resting opponent there are subtle differences. If you are chasing the opponent you have to step in deeper. It could be the second throw in a combination. Some players have shoulder injures that prevent them from the high pull with the sleeve hand. So on and so on. But the mechanics are taught the same. Just in competition you can off balance the opponent by moving them and throw them without the perfect mechanics.
